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TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
71–80 of 208 posts
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.
> If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. That little bit there is called democracy. Without transparency, it's called fascism.
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Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.
And the issue with that is...? "complain" just means negative feedback which should be taken into consideration since a draft is a version which is still being worked on. Isn't that how it should really be?
Complain is a very mild word. Proposals will be shred to pieces by local politicians looking for quick score and media always on the look for a sensation. Nothing will ever get signed if proposals are made public.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#74Welcome to the New World Order, you didn't think it was gong to be a democratic order. Did you? These sweeping treaties (they are not agreements) lay the foundation of world government. yiu can be certain that nothing good will come from politicians secretly meeting to talk about a plan that no one is sharing. These treaties provide for unprecedented power to corporations to determine the goods and services to be tra…
At what time and place exactly was the "old" world order democratic?
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#75It looks like this site got hugged to death, does anyone have a mirror link?
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
They should pass an emergency law that requires all documents containing suggested content for national legislation be published in full, made available to the public via government websites (or national equivalents). Wording not published could not be included in any legislation. Anything short of that makes a mockery of the idea that we have any sort of democracy. A democracy where the demos aren't allowed to read…
They should also be in a public revision control system. I don’t just want to see the material, I want to see who added/removed what and when.
That would be very neat.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't make me feel any better. This treaty and the debate around it have become very public, and continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate. By the time this is in its final form, many countries (like the US) would have basically already voted for approval, meaning a public debate will be to…
Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you n…
Why not. If I can argue as a leading party, that my populous would never consent to this or that feature of the treaty, I gain enormous leverage.
And seen another way. If any majority of people inside a democracy does not want to have a feature it is the politicians job to listen to the people and do their bidding. Politicians are there to server the people not to rule them.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#78"Representative democracy is often presented as the only form of democracy possible in mass societies. It arguably allows for efficient ruling by a sufficiently small number of people on behalf of the larger number." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy Democracy is more a form of elitism than "power to the people". It has always been like that. Another system is possible (like Futarchy or a form of…
Never heard of Pericles, didn't you? Else you know the first democracy was picking up his members randomly and evenly among the citizens.
Where is the elite in this?
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't make me feel any better. This treaty and the debate around it have become very public, and continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate. By the time this is in its final form, many countries (like the US) would have basically already voted for approval, meaning a public debate will be to…
Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you n…
Human inventiveness is infinite, can take us to the moon and land supercomputers in our hands... but apparently making smart business and transparent democracy compatible is just too damn difficult.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you n…
Why not. If I can argue as a leading party, that my populous would never consent to this or that feature of the treaty, I gain enormous leverage. And seen another way. If any majority of people inside a democracy does not want to have a feature it is the politicians job to listen to the people and do their bidding. Politicians are there to server the people not to rule them.
You have time for that. After the draft is published. People are saying that this is NEGOTIATED in private. Which is how negotiations work. What will be proposed as a draft depends on many variables. Accepting the draft and making it into laws takes many steps, the final one being approval from every member's parliament.