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TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

truepublica.org.uk

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Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#51

Post by IanCal »

izacus wrote: post #16
deif wrote: post #7

Note that TTIP still has to be agreed upon by the EU Parliament. Personally I don't really care what the lobbyists are writing in secret. At some point they have to present to the EUP (where we actually have representation) and they have been very consistent at shutting down the crap that the corporations try to get through. It's not that secret. It's secret while they work on it, sure, but I've watched countless deb…

Well, we just found out that 6/7 of our countries MEP's in Parliament voted for TTIP without even reading it. With no consultation or anything else. I have very low hopes that reason will prevail in this case.

> Well, we just found out that 6/7 of our countries MEP's in Parliament voted for TTIP without even reading it.

Voted for a not-yet negotiated trade agreement? Are you sure you've not misunderstood this?

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/about-ttip/pr...

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#52

Post by rev »

pgnas wrote: post #29

Welcome to the New World Order, you didn't think it was gong to be a democratic order. Did you? These sweeping treaties (they are not agreements) lay the foundation of world government. yiu can be certain that nothing good will come from politicians secretly meeting to talk about a plan that no one is sharing. These treaties provide for unprecedented power to corporations to determine the goods and services to be tra…

"Foundation of the western world government" would be more accurate. There are countries that (unlike EU) cannot be forced into signing this kind of treaties: e.g. China (for any number of reasons) or Russia (it's economically insignificant, but with political and military stances clearly in disagreement with those of the West).

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#53

Post by germanier »

abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts, not the final agreement.

It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase MPs usally don't have access at all.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#54

Post by themartorana »

germanier wrote: post #53
abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

That doesn't make me feel any better. This treaty and the debate around it have become very public, and continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate.

By the time this is in its final form, many countries (like the US) would have basically already voted for approval, meaning a public debate will be too late and all but meaningless.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#55

Post by vmorgulis »

"Representative democracy is often presented as the only form of democracy possible in mass societies. It arguably allows for efficient ruling by a sufficiently small number of people on behalf of the larger number."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Democracy is more a form of elitism than "power to the people". It has always been like that.

Another system is possible (like Futarchy or a form of Anarchism) but the transition is risky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futarchy

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#56

Post by witty_username »

germanier wrote: post #53
abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret.

If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#57

Post by alanwatts »

>Personally I'm in favor of democracy, which means that the central institutions in the society have to be under popular control. Now, under capitalism we can't have democracy by definition. Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are in principle under autocratic control. Thus, a corporation or an industry is, if we were to think of it in political terms, fascist; that is, it has tight control at the top and strict obedience has to be established at every level -- there's a little bargaining, a little give and take, but the line of authority is perfectly straightforward. Just as I'm opposed to political fascism, I'm opposed to economic fascism. I think that until major institutions of society are under the popular control of participants and communities, it's pointless to talk about democracy.

-Noam Chomsky, Business Today, May 1973

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#58

Post by witty_username »

RobertoG wrote: post #42
jokoon wrote: post #35

Sometimes I just want to think those treaties' function is to curtail multinationals, so that countries can be able to effectively organize themselves against those corporations who have become hard to regulate in a context of globalization. So if you want to successfully do it, you have to keep as many people in the dark, since I also believe those big companies have a tremendous influence on politicians. Maybe it's…

It's very difficult to give you a clear reason on why X thing is bad because.. well, nobody have seen X. But, if you are not very naive, you should be asking yourself why a free trade treaty is so important when we already have free trade. And if it's only a few changes to the current situation, why all the secret? Anyway, the things that have been leaked don't sound very well.

> you should be asking yourself why a free trade treaty is so important when we already have free trade

Depends on your definition of "free trade", but we don't have completely free trade; many countries have high tarrifs, for example Japan's rice tarrif.

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2015/10/06/tpp-deal-expec...

(OK, this is TPP, but I'm sure the same point applies).

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#59

Post by pdkl95 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #39
reacweb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of procedure is clearly there to fight democracy. I think the TTIP should not be adopted whatever its content, just because of this non democratic procedure. The people who have initiate this procedure should be investigated. Maybe a law should be adopted to punish these nasty people.

> Maybe a law should be adopted to punish these nasty people. I don't think you should punish people with ex post facto laws, and in many countries you can't.

There may already be a law on the books in some countries.

Regarding the US, these treaties will probably effect more harm to the protections and government as defined by the Constitution than any army. So at what point does that count as "levying war"? Or are we going to pretend that "war" doesn't include economic weapons?

(I suspect this might be easier in other countries, that use a less restrictive definition of treason)

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#60

Post by imglorp »

witty_username wrote: post #56
germanier wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

> If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

That little bit there is called democracy. Without transparency, it's called fascism.

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