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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#191

Post by eli_gottlieb »

Nutmog wrote: post #136
yummyfajitas wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just agreed that a situation which increases inequality (rich person gaining 3x, poor person 2x) helps the poorer person more . How do you reconcile this with the claim that inequality is the problem?

Isn't inequality just a polite word for jealousy? We're all peasants compared to some possible future generations 100 years in the future with all their cancer cures and Mars holidays.

And you think possible future generations are going to want to lord things over us?

Don't play dumb. They're going to break down crying when they're told what our planet went through right now. It will be like when today's children are made to really look at photos of Auschwitz, or the Syrian Civil War, or guinea-worm cases in Africa, or child labor in coal mines.

Oh wait, some of those things are still present-day problems.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#192

Post by crdoconnor »

vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

Socialism did take root in America. As did communism. They were rooted out and killed (often brutally) while the ruling classes pretended that they withered due to lack of necessity and/or interest.

What did you think McCarthyism was all about? Or Ronald Reagan firing the air traffic controllers?

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#193

Post by rawTruthHurts »

mason240 wrote: post #179
rawTruthHurts wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those working lads extracting diamonds in Congo with their bare hands don't have much of an opening in the world either. I'm sure they don't work hard enough to deserve it.

It's pretty clear the domain of this discussion is first world, Western countries of Canada, US, and the EU.

But of course! Let me cater to those of your kind:

Those low class lads working for less than the minimum wage without any means nor family support don't have much of an opening in the world either. I'm sure they don't work hard enough to deserve it.

Refer to wikipedia for any futher clarifications on "poverty" or "poverty in the First World" in general.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#194

Post by vinceguidry »

taurath wrote: post #106
vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now.

Every now and again someone falls on hard times and posts in the forum asking for assistance. Last time I remember this happening, the guy asked for short-term contracts rather than handouts. I'm not the richest guy in the world, but I offered one to him, I would have put the fee on a credit card. He never responded to my inquiry. I imagine he was flooded with better offers, I'll admit mine wasn't the greatest. The thread was filled with well-wishes and good advice.

The community here are among the most understanding and generous people I've ever met, even amongst other devs.

I'm sorry, but the people I'm referring to, would not know what to do with that kind of generosity if it was offered to them on a plate. I know these people well, I sympathize with them at the bar, I send them money when they're in jail, and again when they get out. They want self-respect but are too hard-headed to actually work well with others. You have to check your tendency to give because it's like pouring money down the drain.

A homeless guy is happy with $20. The American "middle" class wouldn't be satisfied with thousands.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#195

Post by rayiner »

746F7475 wrote: post #124
randycupertino wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel you. My brother is a restaurant manager in the middle of Kansas making 30k a year. And he is a smart guy who was a MATH MAJOR at a state school! He could come out here and get a job at a startup and make 80k easily. But he won't leave his inlaws family, so he's stuck in Kansas. There is some strain and resentment in our relationship over our income differential, sure... especially when I want to complain that…

Completely off-topic, but whenever I see these amounts I feel like either I don't understand how U.S. economy works or I've been living in poverty my whole life. I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. Like I have money to buy all kind of unnecessary stuff for my hobbies. Is 30k/year really low salary in U.S.? Or am I just being under paid? I always though m…

$30k is the median individual income in the U.S., and just below the average starting salary for fresh college graduates. So it's probably on the low side for someone with a B.S. in an in-demand field.

Cost of living varies a lot, but overall Americans are pretty rich in comparison to most Europeans (in the sense of being able to afford more imported Apple products made with child labor). Our median income is 35% higher than Germany and 50% higher than Finland. The flip side of that is that there is less of a safety net and having less money here is a lot harder. For example, our cheap urban neighborhoods are far more dangerous than comparable neighborhoods in most European countries.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#196

Post by wfo »

cbr wrote: post #122
aedron wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! You would think that was obvious. As a European I am shocked and appalled at the jobs members of the American working class work. Here no one is allowed to work more than 38 hours per week or have less than five weeks of paid vacation, at a minimum hourly rate of about five dollars after tax. I am not comparing the two countries which are obviously very different in many ways, except to say that poor people in A…

> a minimum hourly rate of about five dollars after tax US federal minimum wage is $7.25 (and higher in many states), with income tax being functionally negative at low incomes. You could adjust downward by 10% to account for the five weeks of paid leave but that still gets you $6.50/hr.

Also account for the enormous cost of healthcare which is not paid for by taxes.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#197

Post by vinceguidry »

sangnoir wrote: post #140
taurath wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now.

> I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now While the tone is harsh - he has a point on voting against their own interests. I think a similar argument for developer is already being made on HN, concerning taking a pay cut in exchange of worthless common…

> I see no need to sugar-coat calling out poor decision making in any sphere.

You can't help someone who consistently acts against their own best interests. At least, not the way you want to help them. All you can do is try to be understanding and work to keep the worst outcomes from happening.

We want a policy solution? We could fund more soup kitchens. We help the poor with government programs because the poor are desperate enough to actually use the programs. What are you going to do for the middle class? They're entirely too proud for handouts, but that's really the only thing government can do.

They won't even go to church, the quintessential middle-class charity.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#198

Post by wfo »

TheGirondin wrote: post #178
vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

Yes, people certainly love that quote because it means that can simply dismiss anyone who doesn't think the same way they do with having to do any critical thinking on their part to understand the actual reasons they disagree.

Or, instead of assuming malice on the part of anyone who dares to disagree with you, you could recognize that people like it because it's clever and deeply true in a way that maybe you aren't able to see.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#200

Post by dionidium »

spacecowboy_lon wrote: post #145
JanezStupar wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. It really is. However in Silicon Valley cost of living is so expensive that earning 100k/year still makes you relatively not all that better off. Where I live most of senior software engineers make around 30k/year with higher cost of living than in the US (excepting hotspots such as SV/SF/NY/...). People who have spe…

Just because you have a >1,000,000 mortgage debt that sucks up a lot of your salary doesn't make you a millionaire. Its if you have > 1 mill in liquid assets that you are a millionaire.

$x never seems like a lot of money after you spend it.
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