Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 288 posts

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#131

Post by Wildgoose »

irremediable wrote: post #120
Wildgoose wrote: post #115

Not just America, America is just leading the pack. And from an English perspective I certainly wouldn't eulogise the Unions in the way this article does either. My father (now retired) was a member of the EETPU (Electrician's Union). It was seen as a "right-wing" Union because its constitution banned communists from holding any positions within the Union - but that was because communist activists and their aggressiv…

I really like your point about pubs. Your point about mass immigration is good too, though I think it omits the impact that automation and outsourcing have already had on employment. Not so sure about your view on marriage, though. Are you saying your son shouldn't marry because, if he finds a girlfriend and has children, marriage would disadvantage him should they ever divorce?

I've been happily married for 22 years but I guess I've been lucky. It's certainly the ideal, which is why I want it for my daughters. However I could also tell horror stories about male friends who married, divorced, and subsequently lost most of their property whilst simultaneously having to fight just to get access to their children. Difficult when you've lost your house and most (or all) of your savings.

If you are married you seem to lose all your rights in the event of a break-up. Stay single and although you have to pay financial support, you will at least keep your house and belongings.

One of my friends had had to put up with a concerted campaign of abuse by his ex-wife. She got him arrested and held over night on false allegations, and whilst he was being held emptied his bank accounts, stripped his home of all movable possessions and even telephoned where we work making all kinds of untrue allegations in an attempt to get him sacked. It gets worse, but I think you get the picture.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#132

Post by sangnoir »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #108
anon4 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, of course inequality itself is not the problem. If a loaf of bread costs 0.20$ and rent is 50$/month, while keeping all salaries at their current level. However, inequality has a definite effect on economics and prices, so we can deduce that if the ratio of the two salaries were greater than it already is, while the job remains the exact same, then his mother would be in a worse position.

I should have clarified that I meant those dollar figures in real terms. In the scenario I'm describing one of them can buy 2x as many things while the other can buy 3x. Inflation is a separate problem.

>> However, inequality has a definite effect on economics and prices, so we can deduce that if the ratio of the two salaries were greater than it already is, while the job remains the exact same, then his mother would be in a worse position

> Inflation is a separate problem

It's not just inflation: supply/demand dynamics will be changed across income levels. For example bidding wars might cause rentals to go up, and the mother will be outbid (see: gentrification or recent news on San Franciso rents)

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#133

Post by JanezStupar »

746F7475 wrote: post #124
randycupertino wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel you. My brother is a restaurant manager in the middle of Kansas making 30k a year. And he is a smart guy who was a MATH MAJOR at a state school! He could come out here and get a job at a startup and make 80k easily. But he won't leave his inlaws family, so he's stuck in Kansas. There is some strain and resentment in our relationship over our income differential, sure... especially when I want to complain that…

Completely off-topic, but whenever I see these amounts I feel like either I don't understand how U.S. economy works or I've been living in poverty my whole life. I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. Like I have money to buy all kind of unnecessary stuff for my hobbies. Is 30k/year really low salary in U.S.? Or am I just being under paid? I always though m…

> I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty.

It really is. However in Silicon Valley cost of living is so expensive that earning 100k/year still makes you relatively not all that better off.

Where I live most of senior software engineers make around 30k/year with higher cost of living than in the US (excepting hotspots such as SV/SF/NY/...).

People who have spent their whole lives in places like California have no meaningful perspective. You get millionaires crying due to their "poverty".

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#134

Post by mtbcoder »

WalterBright wrote: post #107

As a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that it has never been easier to start your own business and instantly reach a worldwide marketplace. It has never been less expensive to make things to sell. It has never been more practical to work from your home for a company anywhere in the world.

This isn't a counter-point to the themes in the article at all. While starting a business from a legal and paperwork standpoint is quite easy, maintaining a business is still incredibly difficult and is not even remotely fathomable for the vast majority of white collar, working individuals and families, let alone even blue collar folks. Most businesses still fail, regardless of how easy it is to start one. Furthermore, making things to sell online from ones home simply isn't a panacea to working class America's economic woes and trivializes the true plight of the situation.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#135

Post by JanezStupar »

jimbobimbo wrote: post #63
meric wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With some frugality, I think it's physically and economically possible. Imagine an America where grandparents (and great-grandparents if any) live with one of their children's family. Assuming an average of two children per grandparent, it will be half of the households will have 2 children, 2 parents, and 2 grandparents, and the other half the traditional nuclear family. The nursing home infrastructure will be much…

Have you ever tried to live under the same roof with an Alzheimer's sufferer? It's not a "50 year old couple will be able to converse and socialise with their 75 year old parent(s)" - it's a full time terrible, horrible job, exacerbated by the helplessness when watching your elders losing every last bit of their past selves.

Such is life.

Deal with it and carry on.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#136

Post by Nutmog »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #114
philsnow wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of relative buying power, going from $7.50/h to $15/h is a much bigger jump than going from $70/h to $210/h. This is sort of a sick twist on the idea that "the house always wins" or "the market can remain illogical longer than you can remain solvent": at lower incomes, it sometimes only takes one car maintenance, one unexpected trip to the dentist, before you have to start picking and choosing what bills to…

You just agreed that a situation which increases inequality (rich person gaining 3x, poor person 2x) helps the poorer person more . How do you reconcile this with the claim that inequality is the problem?

Isn't inequality just a polite word for jealousy? We're all peasants compared to some possible future generations 100 years in the future with all their cancer cures and Mars holidays.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#137

Post by fucking_tragedy »

vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

Years of lies, propaganda and rhetoric have been internalized. The greatest trick in politics has been the ability to convince people to vote against their own interests.

> it's why the unions left in the first place

If it was that simple, why are antilabor and unionization laws passed or pushed upon areas that allow freedom of assembly?

Many physical laborers recognize the importance of unions and are members.

If labor had a way to demand a portion of the productivity gains that went to the rich over the past ~40 years, not much would have changed in terms of lifestyle for the former middle class.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#138

Post by sangnoir »

Wildgoose wrote: post #115

Not just America, America is just leading the pack. And from an English perspective I certainly wouldn't eulogise the Unions in the way this article does either. My father (now retired) was a member of the EETPU (Electrician's Union). It was seen as a "right-wing" Union because its constitution banned communists from holding any positions within the Union - but that was because communist activists and their aggressiv…

> The EETPU dealt with the problem, other Unions, the NUM (National Union of Mineworkers) did not. It was their aggressive confrontational policies that wrecked worker solidarity in private industry.

I'm not English, but from my (lefty, somewhat uninformed) point of view - wasn't it Maggie Thatcher who "wrecked worker solidarity in private industry"? Or at least wasn't the downfall of unions around her time?

Aside: I have a colleague from Liverpool, let's just say he wasn't distraught upon learning the news of her passing.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#139

Post by rawTruthHurts »

mback00 wrote: post #89

"Not lucky enough" - that just gauls me every time I hear it. If someone chooses to slack off (only HS education w/o trade and w/o entreprenurial ambition)... They are automatically ranked by the willfully ignorant as "unlucky." Please! There has never been a place and time in the history of mankind when a man with a will could not make something of himself as today! A man with an idea can easily and quickly form a c…

Those working lads extracting diamonds in Congo with their bare hands don't have much of an opening in the world either. I'm sure they don't work hard enough to deserve it.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#140

Post by sangnoir »

taurath wrote: post #106
vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now.

> I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now

While the tone is harsh - he has a point on voting against their own interests. I think a similar argument for developer is already being made on HN, concerning taking a pay cut in exchange of worthless common stock. I see no need to sugar-coat calling out poor decision making in any sphere.

Post reply on HN