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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

theatlantic.com

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#121

Post by x0x0 »

vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

I agree with much of your comment, but a big piece of it simply isn't true. Since the late 70s (dates vary slightly based on which instrument you use to measure), the returns to increased productivity have gone, almost entirely, to the rich. That has nothing to do with any natural law or boom, but rather a political decision that the country has made.

Many of us who advocate for less inequality are advocating for changing the political decision behind the distribution of our wealth increase. For example, had median income, base year 1979, paced productivity, it would have gone from ~50k to ~90k (real). It actually went from ~49k to ... ~54k.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#122

Post by cbr »

aedron wrote: post #104
maxmax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? You need to think much more basic than that: Success is having a savings account, a roof over your head in a safe stable location so the kids can stay in the same school, reliable transportation, and a job that provides enough income for all of the above.

Yes! You would think that was obvious. As a European I am shocked and appalled at the jobs members of the American working class work. Here no one is allowed to work more than 38 hours per week or have less than five weeks of paid vacation, at a minimum hourly rate of about five dollars after tax. I am not comparing the two countries which are obviously very different in many ways, except to say that poor people in A…

> a minimum hourly rate of about five dollars after tax

US federal minimum wage is $7.25 (and higher in many states), with income tax being functionally negative at low incomes. You could adjust downward by 10% to account for the five weeks of paid leave but that still gets you $6.50/hr.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#123

Post by SCHiM »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #114
philsnow wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of relative buying power, going from $7.50/h to $15/h is a much bigger jump than going from $70/h to $210/h. This is sort of a sick twist on the idea that "the house always wins" or "the market can remain illogical longer than you can remain solvent": at lower incomes, it sometimes only takes one car maintenance, one unexpected trip to the dentist, before you have to start picking and choosing what bills to…

You just agreed that a situation which increases inequality (rich person gaining 3x, poor person 2x) helps the poorer person more . How do you reconcile this with the claim that inequality is the problem?

That's just basic economy. And it was also adequately explained in the post you just responded to.

The more you already have of something the less it's worth to you, that goes for almost everything including money in this case.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#124

Post by 746F7475 »

randycupertino wrote: post #99
jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

I feel you. My brother is a restaurant manager in the middle of Kansas making 30k a year. And he is a smart guy who was a MATH MAJOR at a state school! He could come out here and get a job at a startup and make 80k easily. But he won't leave his inlaws family, so he's stuck in Kansas. There is some strain and resentment in our relationship over our income differential, sure... especially when I want to complain that…

Completely off-topic, but whenever I see these amounts I feel like either I don't understand how U.S. economy works or I've been living in poverty my whole life. I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. Like I have money to buy all kind of unnecessary stuff for my hobbies. Is 30k/year really low salary in U.S.? Or am I just being under paid? I always though my family was above middle class, but I guess we've been under it or something...

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#125

Post by johnloeber »

746F7475 wrote: post #124
randycupertino wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel you. My brother is a restaurant manager in the middle of Kansas making 30k a year. And he is a smart guy who was a MATH MAJOR at a state school! He could come out here and get a job at a startup and make 80k easily. But he won't leave his inlaws family, so he's stuck in Kansas. There is some strain and resentment in our relationship over our income differential, sure... especially when I want to complain that…

Completely off-topic, but whenever I see these amounts I feel like either I don't understand how U.S. economy works or I've been living in poverty my whole life. I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. Like I have money to buy all kind of unnecessary stuff for my hobbies. Is 30k/year really low salary in U.S.? Or am I just being under paid? I always though m…

Software testing is not software engineering. Testing generally doesn't pay as well. Be careful: if you're doing an engineer's job, then you deserve an engineer's wage. 30k/year would certainly be very low for a software engineer with a degree. For a software tester, it still appears low. According to glassdoor[0], the median US wage for a software tester is $67k. If you're making $30k, then you're probably being underpaid.

Furthermore, having money to buy unnecessary stuff for your hobbies is not the metric to go by. The more important metric is about what you're able to save. Important questions are:

* Are you saving enough money to ensure a comfortable retirement?

* Are you saving enough money to buy your children (assuming you have/will have them) a decent education?

* Are you saving enough money to cover medical expenses later in life?

* Are you able to set aside an emergency fund?

If the answer to any of those questions is "no", then you should probably be concerned.

[0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-tester-salary-SR...

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#126

Post by yummyfajitas »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #117
yummyfajitas wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have clarified that I meant those dollar figures in real terms. In the scenario I'm describing one of them can buy 2x as many things while the other can buy 3x. Inflation is a separate problem.

Well of course inflation is a separate problem if you define figures in real terms...that's essentially a tautology, since real is defined as nominal minus inflation. Back in the real world however, the relative price/value/production of things is not a separate problem...and since I'm guessing most people's objections to inequality is not its effects in some hypothetical world where all concepts are independent, but…

Hypotheticals of this nature are useful for figuring out our terminal values. If the situation I described does not make the OP more sad, then inequality is not the ultimate problem.

If you want to claim that inequality somehow causes poverty (and poverty is the real problem), make that case.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#127

Post by neppo »

johnloeber wrote: post #125
746F7475 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely off-topic, but whenever I see these amounts I feel like either I don't understand how U.S. economy works or I've been living in poverty my whole life. I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. Like I have money to buy all kind of unnecessary stuff for my hobbies. Is 30k/year really low salary in U.S.? Or am I just being under paid? I always though m…

Software testing is not software engineering. Testing generally doesn't pay as well. Be careful: if you're doing an engineer's job, then you deserve an engineer's wage. 30k/year would certainly be very low for a software engineer with a degree. For a software tester, it still appears low. According to glassdoor[0], the median US wage for a software tester is $67k. If you're making $30k, then you're probably being und…

he/she is probably not from the US, 30k is a high enough salary in other countries.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#128

Post by lmm »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #96
jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

Would you be more sad if her salary went up to $15/hour (~2x), but yours went up to $210/hour (~3x, assuming you started from $70 ~= 10 x $7)? If this would not make you sad, then inequality isn't really the problem.

I suspect I'd be sadder, though certainly there's some ratio at which my happiness at our gain in overall wealth would outweigh my sadness at our increased inequality.

Let me suggest one of those data-driven analyses you like: for a set of equal-population regions or some such (ideally not just countries, although that might be the only way data is available), plot a happiness measure against mean wealth (income might be easier to get figures for) and Gini coefficient, and do a linear regression or similar. That should give a formula for how efficient wealth redistribution policies need to be (i.e. how much they need to lower the Gini per dollar-per-capita expended[1]) to be worthwhile in terms of increasing overall happiness.

[1] Of course actually redistributed dollars aren't expended and don't change average wealth at all. But the redistribution programme would involve a certain amount of labour that could otherwise be used productively being redirected to administration, court battles, police etc. and the value of that labour is expended.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#129

Post by [deleted] »

neppo wrote: post #127
johnloeber wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software testing is not software engineering. Testing generally doesn't pay as well. Be careful: if you're doing an engineer's job, then you deserve an engineer's wage. 30k/year would certainly be very low for a software engineer with a degree. For a software tester, it still appears low. According to glassdoor[0], the median US wage for a software tester is $67k. If you're making $30k, then you're probably being und…

he/she is probably not from the US, 30k is a high enough salary in other countries.

[deleted]

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#130

Post by 746F7475 »

neppo wrote: post #127
johnloeber wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software testing is not software engineering. Testing generally doesn't pay as well. Be careful: if you're doing an engineer's job, then you deserve an engineer's wage. 30k/year would certainly be very low for a software engineer with a degree. For a software tester, it still appears low. According to glassdoor[0], the median US wage for a software tester is $67k. If you're making $30k, then you're probably being und…

he/she is probably not from the US, 30k is a high enough salary in other countries.

I currently work in Finland and earn $35k/year, but granted I currently live alone in a small flat. I own older model car. I don't consume a lot of food. Which leaves me with most of my salary to spend/save as I see fit. Maybe in time I come to see lack of my salary, but for past ~4 years I only had student welfare which left me with little less than 200€/mo (~$220) after rent and stuff for food and what little hobbies I could support. So the change has been huge
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