All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class • Hacker News Board

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#111

Post by acqq » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #61

tosseraccount wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Employers can't test for intelligence? Do you have a link that backs up your assertion that "employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ".

Employers can, in fact, test for intelligence, and a number do (police departments excluding applicants who score too high on such tests -- and the cases validating the legality of that policy -- have been a subject of wide note.) To the extent such test have racially disparate impact, there is a significant burden in showing that the test is a valid measure of ability to do the job for which it is used as part of th…

Regarding "too high IQ for policemen" I've just found a case from 2000. Very interesting. Is there anything more recent?

http://www.aele.org/apa/jordan-newlondon.html

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#112

Post by thenomad » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:42 AM UTC

adevine wrote: post #64

smt88 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. I vehemently believe in liberal arts and the importance of people studying philosophy/literature/etc., but studying impractical things is a luxury. Other countries have robust retraining programs, so…

Totally agree, especially with the concept of universal basic income. Over the past couple years I've come closer to the conclusion that the middle class is pretty much doomed, and it will take a big change in our economic system to cope. A middle class fundamentally requires a large number of well-paying "repetitive" or "algorithmic" jobs. Doesn't matter if they are blue collar or white collar, but there need to be…

There's another element to this too which multiplies the problem: whether the competition is on a local or a global scale.

Consider being a chef vs being a filmmaker. If you're the best chef in a city, you'll be in considerable demand. See, for example, Tom Kitchin in Edinburgh, who is justifiably rather famous and whose restaurant is booked out months in advance.

If you're the best filmmaker in a city, by contrast, no-one really cares. What matters there is if you're the best - or one of the best 10 or so - in the world.

(Or at least, within a specific language.)

Why? Because you can copy films and sell them all over the world without additional labour. You can do neither with food.

So whilst the two are "creative" jobs, the output's transportability and replicability make a huge difference in just how good you have to be to be the best.

(Not that I'm saying being a chef or running a restaurant isn't competitive. It's very competitive. And bloody hard work in other ways. Say what you like about being a filmmaker, it doesn't involve 14-hour days 360 days of the year to stay afloat.)

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#113

Post by bcook » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:45 AM UTC

mback00 wrote: post #89

"Not lucky enough" - that just gauls me every time I hear it. If someone chooses to slack off (only HS education w/o trade and w/o entreprenurial ambition)... They are automatically ranked by the willfully ignorant as "unlucky." Please! There has never been a place and time in the history of mankind when a man with a will could not make something of himself as today! A man with an idea can easily and quickly form a c…

Judging others is an impossible task. We use the word "unlucky" because we do not truly know that person. Yes, they could be lazy, but they could also have mental or physical problems that are beyond their control.

So, we say "unlucky" because it hints at the fact that many of the gifts that we humans have were not individually earned (intelligence, will-power, mental sanity, life, general health, your parents, etc). Nobody is in full control of their life, so we cannot judge them with impunity for the way their life worked out.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#114

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:46 AM UTC

philsnow wrote: post #110

yummyfajitas wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be more sad if her salary went up to $15/hour (~2x), but yours went up to $210/hour (~3x, assuming you started from $70 ~= 10 x $7)? If this would not make you sad, then inequality isn't really the problem.

In terms of relative buying power, going from $7.50/h to $15/h is a much bigger jump than going from $70/h to $210/h. This is sort of a sick twist on the idea that "the house always wins" or "the market can remain illogical longer than you can remain solvent": at lower incomes, it sometimes only takes one car maintenance, one unexpected trip to the dentist, before you have to start picking and choosing what bills to…

You just agreed that a situation which increases inequality (rich person gaining 3x, poor person 2x) helps the poorer person more.

How do you reconcile this with the claim that inequality is the problem?

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#115

Post by Wildgoose » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:48 AM UTC

Not just America, America is just leading the pack. And from an English perspective I certainly wouldn't eulogise the Unions in the way this article does either. My father (now retired) was a member of the EETPU (Electrician's Union). It was seen as a "right-wing" Union because its constitution banned communists from holding any positions within the Union - but that was because communist activists and their aggressive confrontational policies had almost wrecked the Union. The EETPU dealt with the problem, other Unions, the NUM (National Union of Mineworkers) did not. It was their aggressive confrontational policies that wrecked worker solidarity in private industry.

The article touches on the breakdown of other social support as well. Marriage for example. And yet doesn't touch on why this might be. I have a son and two daughters. I have told my daughters that they must get married, and my son that he should definitely not. Why? Because divorce laws are so anti-male that nowadays it makes no sense for a man to marry. (And yes, I cynically want my daughters to gain this protection).

In the UK there used to be a massive culture of socialising in "pubs" (public houses, or "bars"). Legislative changes ranging from allowing the 24 hour sale of cheap alcohol in supermarkets coupled with anti-smoking legislation that makes it illegal to smoke inside pubs have driven away a large chunk of that trade. I am a non-smoker but would prefer an open pub that allows smoking than no pub at all. This is important because pubs are also traditionally where different social classes meet and mingle as equals as well as where young people used to learn to drink responsibly under the watchful eye of the landlord and older drinkers - now they are likely to get totally smashed on alco-pops out of sight.

Then there's the impact of mass immigration on social housing and the resultant disruption of traditional communities.

The traditional working classes (my background) are already under assault even before we add in the coming tide of job losses through automation. These are all good reasons for supporting a move to a Basic Citizen's Income as soon as possible.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#116

Post by w_t_payne » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:48 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #96

jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

Would you be more sad if her salary went up to $15/hour (~2x), but yours went up to $210/hour (~3x, assuming you started from $70 ~= 10 x $7)? If this would not make you sad, then inequality isn't really the problem.

We can't have the jobs that we want and make the things that we want if the market can't afford to buy them.

As well as focussing our discussion on economic equality and social justice, we can also approach the problem from a perspective of enlightened self-interest.

Widely distributed economic equality implies a greater ability to spend, and a greater ability to borrow, and a greater ability to create wealth in aggregate.

A wider distribution of wealth, on average, yields greater wealth overall.

This doesn't imply equality -- just a distribution of wealth that is closer to a Normal/Gaussian distribution, with less of it's "energy" disappearing off into the upper tail of the wealthy -- a tail which is necessarily inefficient due to its' bandwidth constraints and limited decision making capacity.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#117

Post by ACow_Adonis » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:52 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #108

anon4 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, of course inequality itself is not the problem. If a loaf of bread costs 0.20$ and rent is 50$/month, while keeping all salaries at their current level. However, inequality has a definite effect on economics and prices, so we can deduce that if the ratio of the two salaries were greater than it already is, while the job remains the exact same, then his mother would be in a worse position.

I should have clarified that I meant those dollar figures in real terms. In the scenario I'm describing one of them can buy 2x as many things while the other can buy 3x. Inflation is a separate problem.

Well of course inflation is a separate problem if you define figures in real terms...that's essentially a tautology, since real is defined as nominal minus inflation.

Back in the real world however, the relative price/value/production of things is not a separate problem...and since I'm guessing most people's objections to inequality is not its effects in some hypothetical world where all concepts are independent, but in the real world where they all connected, I'm not sure hypotheticals of this nature are often that useful...

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#118

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:53 AM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #56

orangecat wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deep irony here, speaking as one of 'Thatcher's children'. Not really; there's a fair amount of support for a basic income from conservatives and libertarians, for good reason. We've decided that we aren't going to let people starve in the streets if they can't find a job. Given that, it makes much more sense to just give people money than to have a huge bureaucracy with dozens of programs trying to alleviate individ…

The social services bogeyman of present day conservatives is no longer the mythical 'welfare queen' but the extensive poverty industry taking their cut as the money sluices through the pipes.

In the UK a number of government funded orgs have admitted that they are:

1. Unreasonably expensive 2. A net negative for the social problem they're supposed to solve

The underlying problem isn't poverty or lack of education. It's a complete collapse of public moral leadership since the 80s - not in the sexual sense, but in the business sense of "Fuck everyone in the world, because money."

Politics and business have always been corrupt. But from the 30s to 60s you could still find good people trying to do good things.

Now they're institutionally corrupt, and politics and business - especially finance, which is the de facto government in the US - have become industrial asshole factories.

This is barbarism, and it can only lead to more barbarism.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#119

Post by miseg » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:57 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #107

As a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that it has never been easier to start your own business and instantly reach a worldwide marketplace. It has never been less expensive to make things to sell. It has never been more practical to work from your home for a company anywhere in the world.

Agreed, and of course some people make use of this.

I have for a long time worked online to sell products (and also have a day job). My wife talks about liking the idea of selling something online, but can never find a calling.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#120

Post by irremediable » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 11:06 AM UTC

Wildgoose wrote: post #115

Not just America, America is just leading the pack. And from an English perspective I certainly wouldn't eulogise the Unions in the way this article does either. My father (now retired) was a member of the EETPU (Electrician's Union). It was seen as a "right-wing" Union because its constitution banned communists from holding any positions within the Union - but that was because communist activists and their aggressiv…

I really like your point about pubs. Your point about mass immigration is good too, though I think it omits the impact that automation and outsourcing have already had on employment.

Not so sure about your view on marriage, though. Are you saying your son shouldn't marry because, if he finds a girlfriend and has children, marriage would disadvantage him should they ever divorce?