All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class • Hacker News Board

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#101

Post by creshal » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 8:47 AM UTC

Dr_tldr wrote: post #90

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

This sounds a lot like the "Just World" fallacy under the cover of genetics. At one point 99% of the population was illiterate and living in thatch huts, and no doubt members of the elite at that time also considered this to be an expression of natural order as well. But as it turns out, almost all of those peasants were capable of learning to read, doing algebra, engaging in abstract reasoning, labor coordination, a…

At least it cannot be significantly elevated further with the current education system. We definitely need improvements here.

(We, as a species. The particular education system I went through scores much better than the US system in every benchmark, but it's still piss poor at actually imparting skills on pupils, instead of rewarding them for accidentally ending up with them for reasons nobody really understands. I don't think any system has properly figured that out yet.)

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#102

Post by anon4 » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 8:51 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #96

jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

Would you be more sad if her salary went up to $15/hour (~2x), but yours went up to $210/hour (~3x, assuming you started from $70 ~= 10 x $7)? If this would not make you sad, then inequality isn't really the problem.

Well, of course inequality itself is not the problem. If a loaf of bread costs 0.20$ and rent is 50$/month, while keeping all salaries at their current level. However, inequality has a definite effect on economics and prices, so we can deduce that if the ratio of the two salaries were greater than it already is, while the job remains the exact same, then his mother would be in a worse position.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#103

Post by x0x0 » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 8:52 AM UTC

randycupertino wrote: post #99

jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

I feel you. My brother is a restaurant manager in the middle of Kansas making 30k a year. And he is a smart guy who was a MATH MAJOR at a state school! He could come out here and get a job at a startup and make 80k easily. But he won't leave his inlaws family, so he's stuck in Kansas. There is some strain and resentment in our relationship over our income differential, sure... especially when I want to complain that…

I similarly have family in a rural state that make shit. On the bright side, they own/will own homes and don't live their entire lives around work. It's refreshing to go home, meet strangers, and have discussions that never mention our jobs.

On the downside, the state is economically depressed and is probably never going to get better. NAFTA plus the decimation of american car manufacturing really fucked them. My family have jobs but they don't pay well (I've bought groceries for a sibling) and it's not likely they will ever be paid even $50k/year -- enough to own a modest home, buy a car every 10 years, pay bills, and have savings -- in a relatively stable job. My brother similarly can't leave because of a joint custody agreement.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#104

Post by aedron » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 9:04 AM UTC

maxmax wrote: post #17

meric wrote: post #10

What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help…

>What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? You need to think much more basic than that: Success is having a savings account, a roof over your head in a safe stable location so the kids can stay in the same school, reliable transportation, and a job that provides enough income for all of the above.

Yes! You would think that was obvious.

As a European I am shocked and appalled at the jobs members of the American working class work. Here no one is allowed to work more than 38 hours per week or have less than five weeks of paid vacation, at a minimum hourly rate of about five dollars after tax.

I am not comparing the two countries which are obviously very different in many ways, except to say that poor people in America are absolutely decrepit, which flies in the face of our image of America as a developed nation.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#105

Post by bsbechtel » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 9:14 AM UTC

Dr_tldr wrote: post #90

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

This sounds a lot like the "Just World" fallacy under the cover of genetics. At one point 99% of the population was illiterate and living in thatch huts, and no doubt members of the elite at that time also considered this to be an expression of natural order as well. But as it turns out, almost all of those peasants were capable of learning to read, doing algebra, engaging in abstract reasoning, labor coordination, a…

Thank you for stating this. I've believed it for a long time, and find it frustrating when others accept that those who are less fortunate or educated than them (or just generally disagree with their worldview) are always going to be that way and incapable of learning or change.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#106

Post by taurath » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 9:40 AM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#107

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 9:47 AM UTC

As a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that it has never been easier to start your own business and instantly reach a worldwide marketplace. It has never been less expensive to make things to sell. It has never been more practical to work from your home for a company anywhere in the world.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#108

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 9:51 AM UTC

anon4 wrote: post #102

yummyfajitas wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be more sad if her salary went up to $15/hour (~2x), but yours went up to $210/hour (~3x, assuming you started from $70 ~= 10 x $7)? If this would not make you sad, then inequality isn't really the problem.

Well, of course inequality itself is not the problem. If a loaf of bread costs 0.20$ and rent is 50$/month, while keeping all salaries at their current level. However, inequality has a definite effect on economics and prices, so we can deduce that if the ratio of the two salaries were greater than it already is, while the job remains the exact same, then his mother would be in a worse position.

I should have clarified that I meant those dollar figures in real terms. In the scenario I'm describing one of them can buy 2x as many things while the other can buy 3x.

Inflation is a separate problem.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#109

Post by CPLX » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 9:53 AM UTC

meric wrote: post #57

CPLX wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a whole lot fluffy vagueness. What they want are stable jobs that don't require higher education. Quite a bit follows from that.

That's backwards. Are the stable jobs don't require higher education what they want in and of itself, or purpose, love, acceptance and belonging you perceive they will be able to get with such a job? If they want what you think a job would give them, why not aim to make available what they actually want? Yes, these days it may be true without a job you lose purpose, love, acceptance and you lose belonging, due to the…

> Yes, these days it may be true without a job you lose purpose, love, acceptance and you lose belonging

Without a job you lose food, shelter, and medical care. Worry about those things first, look up Maslow, etc.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#110

Post by philsnow » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 10:19 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #96

jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

Would you be more sad if her salary went up to $15/hour (~2x), but yours went up to $210/hour (~3x, assuming you started from $70 ~= 10 x $7)? If this would not make you sad, then inequality isn't really the problem.

In terms of relative buying power, going from $7.50/h to $15/h is a much bigger jump than going from $70/h to $210/h. This is sort of a sick twist on the idea that "the house always wins" or "the market can remain illogical longer than you can remain solvent": at lower incomes, it sometimes only takes one car maintenance, one unexpected trip to the dentist, before you have to start picking and choosing what bills to pay. At the higher end, you're picking and choosing what vacations to put off for a little while.

Incremental money at the lower end is worth way more. Inequality is the problem.