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Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

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Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#881

Post by CapricornNoble »

koonsolo wrote: post #332
CapricornNoble wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>still he is using talking-points that come from Kremlin's propaganda, like "The US will fight Russia to the last ukrainian" That's considered "Russian propaganda"? We've managed to goad Putin into grinding up his conventional military in a large-scale war. We've set the Russian economy back decades. And we've so far pulled off both of these, without any NATO member paying a massive price in blood for it. Russian p…

> I've been really critical of the moves we've made in Europe for the past 10-15 years So Germany buying gas from Russia, then trying to buy even more gas and then for a large part depending on it. Do you consider that a good or a bad move?

2000-2010? Good move. Would have helped with integration of Russia into Europe. Post 2010 (really post 2007-2008, but it might have taken a few years to react): bad move. This is roughly when the relationship between the US-led NATO and Russia really soured. It should have been obvious what kind of long game the US was playing, given the switch from a Republican President (Bush) to a Democrat one (Obama). Yet the hardline against Russia remained, clearly the work of the entrenched bureaucrats (aka the "Deep State") beholden to neither party's politics for their power.

At that point Germany should have hedged its bets by finding alternative industrial power (keep your nuclear plants!) and heating (other natgas exporters).

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#882

Post by lowkey »

x1ph0z wrote: post #872
lowkey wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I don’t have the perfect answer to immediately end this conflict with no collateral damage to anyone as you said. That doesn’t mean I advocate arbitrarily punishing innocent civilians for the actions of their rulers - especially when those rulers are proven to be authoritarians who can and will ruthlessly crush dissent from their populace. If you read my other comments on this thread you will see I shar…

Throughout this thread it sounds like you’re bemoaning the fact that there are no ‘precision bombs’ for the Russian economy. So you’d rather do nothing? We’ve seen what appeasement to dictators achieve.

Not true.

I am bemoaning the fact that there IS at least one precision nuke that would single-handedly hit 30% of Russia’s GDP, cause direct pain to Russia’s oligarchs and elites, and immediate decimate Putin’s war machine - all while doing much less damage to ordinary Russians than broad indiscriminate economic sanctions.

I am bemoaning the fact that this tactical nuke we could drop on Russia’s oil & gas sector is clear and obvious to most everyone involved but would result in economic and political blowback for the west so everyone is burying their head in the sand and pretending the option to stop buying oil from authoritarians who attack our allies doesn’t exist.

I have yet to hear a good argument for why broad economic sanctions against an entire nation and its people are more targeted or more effective than just not buying oil or gas from Russia’s elites and stop directly subsidizing Putin’s war machine.

Perhaps someone here can enlighten me?

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#883

Post by politician »

pvaldes wrote: post #864
politician wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A weak, underfed population whose military cannot keep its vehicles in working order isn’t going to be invading its neighbors with any degree of success.

I wouldn't discard part bad management, part deliberate passive-aggressive boycott against the war by military people. You don't want to shoot your relatives in another country and you are afraid to meet the same fate as your general killed from a long distance because crazy politician in power had a tantrum?. The solution is simple: Some pieces in your tank broke, you turn in the wrong direction and get stuck in a m…

Agreed. It would be ideal if the Russian military refused to escalate further.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#884

Post by lowkey »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #794
lowkey wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is though. The west does shove their grubby hands into the bank accounts of ordinary citizens - all the time - to steal their money, resources and taxes. - A few weeks ago it was Canada freezing bank accounts of their political opponents. - The US still allows for civil forfeiture of arbitrary assets with no presumption of innocence or conventional due process. - A little while back Cyprus arbitrarily stole privat…

If anything, that's robbing their own people, not the Russian citizens. That's what OP is saying, it's not the West, but the Russian oligarchs robbing Russian citizens of the wealth they could otherwise have.

How are the Russian oligarchs robbing Russian citizens of the wealth they otherwise could have?

I didn’t read that from OP’s post and I don’t understand what exactly you are claiming here.

Do Russian oligarchs steal from the bank accounts of ordinary Russians or is there another mechanism of theft?

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#885

Post by mancerayder »

tsol wrote: post #825
mancerayder wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ColonizeD half the world. There've been empires for many thousands of years, and for a number of decades now (we can't say a century yet), there haven't really been any. There've been foreign interventions and neo-colonialist activities and exploitation, but on the grand scale, and relative to all of the past, you have to be honest and admit the worst is over. There's a complete culture shift in countries like Britai…

>There've been empires for many thousands of years, and for a number of decades now (we can't say a century yet), there haven't really been any. There've been foreign interventions and neo-colonialist activities and exploitation, but on the grand scale, and relative to all of the past, you have to be honest and admit the worst is over. And who was the most recent to colonize? It's good that it isn't still happening,…

Punishment, reparations are tricky since you're not punishing the people who are still alive. You might be punishing or asking for monetary reparations from their ancestors, arguing they are beneficiaries, but the reality is you'll also be punishing immigrants, and people who look like the colonialists but have nothing to do with it.

The history of the world is a history of the 1 percent and the 99 percent. Just reading some Charles Dickens will show you how awful life was for the lower classes in London, which were numerous. Child labor, extreme poverty, debtors' prisons. Torture for punishment. The history of Europe is also a history of war, serfdom and even slavery, long before we enter the rest of the world.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#886

Post by therusskiy »

lowkey wrote: post #884
selfhoster11 wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, that's robbing their own people, not the Russian citizens. That's what OP is saying, it's not the West, but the Russian oligarchs robbing Russian citizens of the wealth they could otherwise have.

How are the Russian oligarchs robbing Russian citizens of the wealth they otherwise could have? I didn’t read that from OP’s post and I don’t understand what exactly you are claiming here. Do Russian oligarchs steal from the bank accounts of ordinary Russians or is there another mechanism of theft?

taxes that Russians pay are largely stolen by the government and given to oligarchs, who are friends of Putin. For example Rotenbergs want to build a new road, they say it's going to cost them 10x times the market cost, but they are going to win this government contract anyway because they had the same judo coach as Putin.

Any time West puts sanctions on oligarchs Putin makes a law so they can pay less taxes, meaning ordinary people keep paying taxes for them

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#887

Post by lowkey »

dragonwriter wrote: post #785
lowkey wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure we do. Currently we are giving Putin up to a Billion USD per day to buy his oil and gas. If we cut off this market it would cripple Putin’s war in Ukraine much more effectively than arming Ukrainians on the ground. Add in energy subsidies to affected customers in need of economic support to offset the inevitable increase in oil/gas prices in the short-term and we can blunt the worst of the pain on regular Europe…

> Currently we are giving Putin up to a Billion USD per day to buy his oil and gas. Except, even without sanctions on oil & gas, no one is buying the oil. https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/investing/russia-oil-sanction...

Thank you for making my point about dis-information in a time of war. This is fake news by CNN. It is easy to disprove and it isn’t the only example from western media.

For example 6 days ago The NY Times reported that Shell had stopped buying oil from Russia [0] but that was also fake news.

Shell is now defending their decision to buy 100 metric tons of aural crude from Russia according to multiple reports in the past 24 hours. [1]

Nothing changed, It was all just PR spin to manipulate public opinion. It looks like it worked.

In war the first casualty is the truth.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/28/business/russia-oil-compa...

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/shell-buys-r...

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#888

Post by mumblemumble »

ledauphin wrote: post #880
mumblemumble wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans are in fact at this very moment preventing the US from engaging in this war in Ukraine. The US getting more directly involved in Ukraine was never a likely outcome, for reasons that have nothing to do with American public opinion. Throughout the Cold War, both the USA and the USSR made a policy of never directly engaging in conflict on the same soil, because the risk of it escalating into a nuclear war wa…

this is all very true, but does not negate what i said. the American public does not want to risk nuclear war.

Perhaps you wanted to use a different choice of words? "Prevent" implies a much more direct cause and effect relationship than we can reasonably infer in this case.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#889

Post by [deleted] »

bigfudge wrote: post #681
lowkey wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The suffering of Russian people is very avoidable. For example if the US and Germany had the political and economic will to stop buying oil from Russia and thereby directly funding Putin’s war. Instead they chose broad indiscriminate sanctions that, while politically convenient are absolutely devastating to everyday Russian plebs. The Ruble has collapsed leading to hyperinflation on everyday goods the peo…

I don’t see how stopping buying oil would be preferable from the perspective of a Russian citizen. Both will be economically ruinous to the Russian states, eventually. One hits innocent European citizens too, so it seems obvious which to choose.

[deleted]

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#890

Post by lowkey »

bigfudge wrote: post #681
lowkey wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The suffering of Russian people is very avoidable. For example if the US and Germany had the political and economic will to stop buying oil from Russia and thereby directly funding Putin’s war. Instead they chose broad indiscriminate sanctions that, while politically convenient are absolutely devastating to everyday Russian plebs. The Ruble has collapsed leading to hyperinflation on everyday goods the peo…

I don’t see how stopping buying oil would be preferable from the perspective of a Russian citizen. Both will be economically ruinous to the Russian states, eventually. One hits innocent European citizens too, so it seems obvious which to choose.

It is pretty simple really, consider the 2 options:

1) Stop buying oil & gas from oligarchs and Russian elites.

The oils stays in Russia and Russians stay warm in winter.

Putin loses billions in foreign currency which he was using to wage war in Ukraine - crippling his war machine virtually overnight.

The elites and government lose 30% of their GDP and this was money that never trickled down to the plebs. It hurts the oligarchs and givernment who receive the revenue and taxes directly.

2) Broad economic sanctions mean everyday Russians can no longer buy food, medicine, clothing, batteries, electronics, shoes, or anything else from abroad.

It hurts the middle-class and working class more than elites.

Did you know for example that the sanctions against Russia include a carve-out protecting Italy’s ability to sell ultra high-end luxury and designer goods?

Do you still think this is about targeting Russian elites?

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