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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#821

Post by rc00 »

intelfx wrote: post #700
adrian_b wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works only if you trust the Rust people to do their job. Obviously the maintainer does not trust the Rust people, but they also did nothing to gain his trust, but the opposite. Just saying "Trust me, or else I will shame you" is not a viable strategy. The default position of any code maintainer who sees some people coming and saying that they would maintain from now on some parts of the code and that there shoul…

Saying "I do not trust you, so I'm going to stonewall your entire work with which you could have built that trust" is not viable either. Besides, none of this was said. Hellwig did not say "I do not trust you enough". He said "you are cancer, go away". First is harsh, but at least somewhat reasonable (in the sense that it _can be reasoned with_); second is not reasonable at all. Your interpretation is excessively cha…

> Your interpretation is excessively charitable to an obvious bad-faith actor.

And yet you keep defending Hector.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#822

Post by baq »

weberer wrote: post #799
sushidev wrote: post #689

Such a huge discussion and I can’t really understand the problem from reading the comments or some of the excerpts linked. Can anyone explain to me what is the real issue here?

Developer A wants to make a change. Developer B rejects it. Developer A makes a big fuss about it on social media. The creator of the project steps in and chastises Developer A for his behavior. And as additional context, developer A has a history of causing drama on social media. So much that he even has his own page on KiwiFarms.

Also, developer B publicly stated that he will do everything he can to prevent changes written in language 2 from getting merged regardless of technical merit.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#823

Post by nottorp »

baq wrote: post #820
nottorp wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they're ... a religion? No idea what the particular bit of drama discussed here is about, but that's my impression of the Rust "community".

any community can be called that if you squint hard enough and especially if you ignore the silent, get-the-job-done-and-go-home members of it and only listen to evangelists.

Not all communities have evangelists tho.

And if they need evangelists, it's a safe assumption for me that they don't have other merits.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#824

Post by darthrupert »

rdtsc wrote: post #527
e40 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…

> If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. That's just manipulative. Maybe it's just a moment of frustration and they'd take it back eventually, but blackmailing people with social drama is not cool. That's what X and Reddit is for. > Rust folks: Please don't waste your time and mental cycles on drama like this [...] they know they're going to be on the losing side o…

Threatening with social media seems to me like a professional suicide, especially when it's followed by a doubling down and a complete lack of anything resembling an apology.

I'm amazed that Hector is doing this fully in public using his real name.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#826

Post by db48x »

solarkraft wrote: post #813
db48x wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you only have to figure that out once. Amortized over many contributions the cost is essentially nothing.

But the initial cost is what determines whether the first patch will ever be sent, so the amortization may never happen.

I guess technically that’s true, but it cannot possibly take long to learn how to use `git format-patch`, and everyone should already know how to attach a file to an email. Even if you have to spend half an hour reading the entire output of `git format-patch --help`, is that really enough to prevent you from sending your first patch?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#827

Post by markhahn »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #619
lll-o-lll wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers,…

This part is wild. Some people get in so deep they cannot see the forest from the trees. > there is the tangible risk of stifling innovation and Linux is the only place that innovation can occur in the operating system space. One thing I know: HN loves drama, and this stuff reads like first class drama.

The proponents think the value of their "innovation" is obvious, but it is not.

Is it innovative? Is it valuable? Is it worth the cost? Who is it valuable to?

I don't see why the kernel team should be obligated to react in any particular way to a random submission.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#828

Post by markhahn »

rdtsc wrote: post #602
Aeolun wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true though? I don’t see anyone picking C/C++ over Rust/Go in my immediate environment. That might reflect my environment, but all of the things I’d consider C variations for I’d use Rust for as well…

I meant the whole “we are on the right side of history” and if you’re not with us you’re against us and we’ll wage a public drama campaign against you.

Brings to mind certain world figures who have normalized this kind of petulance (which is bullying when real power is involved).

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#829

Post by ogogmad »

Eggpants wrote: post #798
imtringued wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true. I think the C guys told themselves that writing safe C code is just a matter of skill, but data shows that the amount of skill necessary to avoid writing unsafe C just isn't there. The average C developer isn't as competent as they claim. You can lie to yourself and say that the same security problems exist in other languages, but that isn't true. When I check the vulnerabilities marked as…

Rust is sadly more about marketing than actually being popular or safe. That stackoverflow survey rust folks so proudly crow about shows it’s the #1 ‘admired’ language, well #2 was closure and Zig over the years which clearly shows the value of the survey. Just marketing slop. The rust produces safe code claim is also marketing garbage. The rust standard library has over 7.5k (of 35k) unsafe functions in it. The core…

> The rust produces safe code claim is also marketing garbage. The rust standard library has over 7.5k (of 35k) unsafe functions in it. The core library has 7K (of 21k) unsafe functions. So any Rust program that claims not to have “unsafe” code is most likely not true since any program that doesn’t use the standard library is a toy.

Why does any of that imply that Rust doesn't produce safe code? There's no argument here - just some numbers and unjustified conclusions.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#830

Post by markhahn »

adastra22 wrote: post #683
tsimionescu wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone will have to take over Linus' role. There's no way that kernel development can work without a person in charge, at least not in anyway that is remotely similar to today.

Not being remotely similar to today could be a very good thing.

Odd. Linux is by far the most/largest/longest successful project. Or do you have a counterexample?
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