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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#611

Post by OtomotO »

arp242 wrote: post #195
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

I totally agree that even "just threatening" a social media campaign is the wrong way. We are on the same page here.

I totally disagree that the other contributor is "a bit" abrasive though.

It's like a religious war. Brings the worst out of otherwise smart and not asshole people.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#613

Post by OtomotO »

HereIGoAgain wrote: post #547
lll-o-lll wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers,…

The short of his rant is that he wants a "Code Of Standards for maintainers" in addition to a CoC, in order to witch hunt people he feels "gets in the way." Yikes, this is EXACTLY what Linus was talking about except an order of magnitude worse!

Ex falso quodlibet

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#614

Post by throwaway2037 »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

Can I ask something controversial? What if Rust never becomes a significant part of the Linux kernel? What if they keep stalling and all the people pushing for it give up? There seems to be this faith on HN that Rust absolutely belongs in the Linux kernel and if not, the project is a failure.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#615

Post by trod1234 »

lll-o-lll wrote: post #378
e40 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…

I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers,…

There are easy and good answers, just none that every single one would agree with, and that is the problem.

The current management model is based on consensus in some parts, and a dictatorship in others. Its not clear which parts are which because of sprawl, and non-responsiveness.

This is a core communication people issue. The problems arise because in consensus models, people are expected to adopt archetypical roles based somewhat on preference, but mostly on the needs of the group, towards productivity.

If no one else is doing that type of role, someone will be forced into doing it, and will adopt characteristics of that role, regardless of their personal opinions about it.

When they get punished for fulfilling the role, you lose people.

> doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and consider things "unfixable" either.

The given structure is unfixable, because it sets the stage for a trauma loop where actions can't take place without people who are expected to fulfill a role to meet consensus, but in doing so they get punished for volunteering.

There is no way around this structure so long as you use a consensus model in whole or part, in dysfunctional groups the people involved either fail to communicate or worse there are members that impose coercive cost by assuming the unproductive roles so no action happens while resources are wasted.

This really is basic stuff covered in your college level intro to communications coursework.

For those wanting to know more about this, you can read more about the roles at the link below.

https://pressbooks.pub/smallgroup/chapter/roles/

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#616

Post by vhantz »

vlovich123 wrote: post #373
ouraf wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because of Linus' age or because the players involved are bigger than many past issues, but the way I see it, both decisions are really costly: - Endorse Rust with little reserve and over half of the C++ devs will feel betrayed and quit supporting the Linux project. They've been working on C++ for Decades and things mostly worked, so they won't pivot for a new language and way of developing for something t…

> over half of the C++ devs will feel betrayed and quit supporting the Linux project. They've been working on C++ for Decades and things mostly worked, so they won't pivot for a new language and way of developing for something that exists for less than 30 years. You mean C? C++ has been dead and buried for years and there are 0 kernel devs thinking that C++ will ever be allowed in (that idea was killed in the 00s if…

> C++ has been dead and buried for years

LOL, lmao even.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#617

Post by tw1984 »

arp242 wrote: post #195
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#618

Post by Longhanks »

Filligree wrote: post #369
tedivm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kernel is doing fine today, but I don't think that's sustainable. The average age of the maintainers seems to be rising, and plenty of skilled people completely avoid kernel development explicitly because of the hostility and, frankly, assholish behavior that comes from the folks on these mailing lists. Eventually a lot of these people are going to age out, retire, or otherwise move on. I do think there will be a…

Also it's, y'know, written in C. I used to know C. It was my first language, and I spent a fair bit of time in it, but that was before compilers started to treat undefined behaviour as an excuse to break reality. Arguably I'm not smart enough, or disciplined enough, to write C. This may be the case, and therefore I have naturally focused on other languages. Rust, to no-one's surprise, is my current favorite. I've nev…

Why are you projecting your own feelings onto others?

There’s plenty of people who write C, there’s plenty of newcomers who start writing C and if they’re willing to, they can find guidance, mentoring, and tooling to improve their skills. If that’s not the path you want to pursue, that’s fine. But C isn’t going anywhere soon and if you go to any university/college, there’s lots of C being taught and lots of people eager to learn.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#619

Post by throwaway2037 »

lll-o-lll wrote: post #378
e40 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…

I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers,…

This part is wild. Some people get in so deep they cannot see the forest from the trees.

    > there is the tangible risk of stifling innovation and Linux is the only place that innovation can occur in the operating system space.
One thing I know: HN loves drama, and this stuff reads like first class drama.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#620

Post by hinkley »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #614
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

Can I ask something controversial? What if Rust never becomes a significant part of the Linux kernel? What if they keep stalling and all the people pushing for it give up? There seems to be this faith on HN that Rust absolutely belongs in the Linux kernel and if not, the project is a failure.

If you wait long enough a Rust competitor will gain traction. And honestly I wonder if that might not be for the best. How many of rust’s features have only been tried a couple of times?
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