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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#791

Post by hitekker »

ninkendo wrote: post #790

LWN has a great impartial summary of what is occurring, including background on why the DMA subsystem is an important interface point for rust drivers: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1006805/be4cb766fd906623/ (This is a shared link to a subscriber-only LWN article, please consider a paid subscription to LWN if you liked it!)

This isn’t impartial. Jonathan Corbet is naming and shaming, on behalf of one side.

> But Christoph Hellwig … turned this submission away with a message reading, in its entirety: "No rust code in kernel/dma, please" (despite the fact that the patch did not put any code in that directory)

> Already overworked kernel maintainers will have to find time to learn Rust well enough to manage it within their subsystems.

Frankly, this article feels like it’s steps away from social media brigading.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#792

Post by matu3ba »

pornel wrote: post #742
hinkley wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wait long enough a Rust competitor will gain traction. And honestly I wonder if that might not be for the best. How many of rust’s features have only been tried a couple of times?

The Rust project started 15 years ago, and spent a decade growing userbase, library ecosystem, and proving that it's a serious language that's here to stay (which some C maintainers still don't believe). We don't have a Rust-killer language yet. The closest one is SafeC++ (Circle), but it's still a single-dev proof of concept, and the C++ leadership firmly rejected it. Zig went in a different direction. Swift is addi…

> We don't have a Rust-killer language yet.

The type-system analysis of Rust is smart, but not restricted to the language per se, see https://github.com/ityonemo/clr. One merely has to have proper namespacing and necessary type info from generic code to do annotations and solve them. These things are solved in Rust via trait system.

Retroactively patching C to have namespaces will not work and same holds for generics, meaning concrete how to attach lifetimes to generic code.

> Zig went in a different direction.

There is stuff cooking for debugging comptime and better than lsp infos, but this is only wip and hearsay. Might be enough to write external static analysis or not.

Correct me, if wrong etc.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#793

Post by FullGarden_S »

imtringued wrote: post #671
FullGarden_S wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? This was never about the languages primarily though. The C programmers here would react the same way towards any other language, be it Zig or Swift, its not Rust specific. They just don't want to partake the additional headache they'll have to deal with to for making the Linux kernel more accessible to languages other than C. Despite than, Rust devs kept on pushing it after all that was clearly stated, just to ma…

I somewhat disagree on the "you can't escape unsafe" part. It's true for a C+Rust project, but the idea that you need an unsafe language for low level hardware access is plain wrong. That's a "C-ism". Something that might seem true in a universe where most low level work is done in C, but wouldn't be true in a universe where C doesn't exist at all.

its fine if you disagree and think that using "unsafe language" for low level hardware access is wrong but that doesn't change the fact that the more closer one operates to the hardware, the more bare-bone they need the tools to be or else they'll only get in the way of the job. Having to worry about something like a borrow checker or a reference counter just to manipulate a couple of bytes is not an efficient way to perform low level hardware programming.

Also, there is nothing wrong with any "unsafe language". Memory safety is a skill issue, not a language issue. All functional languages are safe and procedural languages are unsafe by nature. Its better to settle on a functional language and compromise on performance if memory safety is of utmost priority. The additional complexity and performance overhead of any supposedly safe procedural language is not worth it for doing low level stuff but it sure could be a fun choice when doing high level stuff.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#795

Post by uecker »

dralley wrote: post #530
noobermin wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.

This is profoundly silly. First of all because we're talking about the kernel community here, which was incredibly toxic and dramatic long before Rust even existed. Linus has chilled out in the past few years but that legacy isn't entirely gone. C++ drama has nearly come to fistfights at conferences, and the only reason that doesn't get talked about more is that the toxicity stays mostly on private (not public) maili…

Discussions on the internet often were dramatic. There are certainly also many "C supremacists", but I don't generally see C people coming to C++ or Rust projects and insisting that it should be rewritten in C because "C is better". I believe C is a better language myself and definitely much better than how it is currently perceived, but I do not mind if other people have a different opinion and do projects using other languages. While the mindset of many C++ and Rust proponents seems to be that "C has to die", so is inherently much more hostile. This makes it then sometimes difficult to ignore this completely.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#796

Post by p0nce »

noobermin wrote: post #479
agoodusername63 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm usually very critical of how Torvolds treats the people around him and the culture he maintains but this is a rare case when I'm not really against Torvalds on this. I've had to remove Hector's postings from my feeds because he just constantly bitches and complains about pretty much everything. He's capable, smart, and is doing more than anybody ever will for Apple hardware. But he desperately needs to Stop Posti…

I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.

This is unfortunately my take with almost every interaction I had with the Rust community. Expressing any diverging opinion is enough to get ostracized.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#797

Post by hitekker »

gpm wrote: post #427
AndyKelley wrote: post #422

I've been saying this for years now: the rust4linux folks are putting so much effort into trying to upstream their work, seems like they should instead put that effort into maintaining a fork. Arguably it would be less hours spent porting than arguing with humans. Certainly more pleasant! Then one of two things will happen: * Rust will prove its worth and their fork will be the better operating system. Distros will s…

I think you're discounting the very real damage that would be done by Linux a project controlled by Linus and a community being replaced by Linux a project controlled by Google/Samsung/Redhat/Microsoft. I'm afraid that this is what is going to happen with the Linus tree effectively rejecting rust drivers by subjecting anyone attempting to upstream rust code to persistent bullying, but I don't want it to happen.

> subject upstream rust code to persistent bullying

I don’t remember seeing this bullying accusation in your original comment. Was it edited in?

Regardless, the “bullying” happened on both sides. Hector Martin started the social media brigading and quit when he couldn’t get his personal enemy suspended for CoC violations. Jonathan Corbet wrote a letter naming and shaming maintainers, in the guise of a report.

All in all, I agree with the GP. Most of the arguments against (even temporary) forking feel like excuses for a lack of will and a maybe even a lack of ability. The space is open for a fork.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#798

Post by Eggpants »

imtringued wrote: post #668
Aurornis wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with Rust and people who use Rust has actually been great. There seems to be an entire second world of “Rust community” and Rust zealots online who are heavy on the drama, though. It really does feel like an alternate Rust universe. Although when I think about it, several of my other interests and hobbies are exactly like this. Great in the real world, but as soon as you step into certain online spaces…

I don't think that's true. I think the C guys told themselves that writing safe C code is just a matter of skill, but data shows that the amount of skill necessary to avoid writing unsafe C just isn't there. The average C developer isn't as competent as they claim. You can lie to yourself and say that the same security problems exist in other languages, but that isn't true. When I check the vulnerabilities marked as…

Rust is sadly more about marketing than actually being popular or safe.

That stackoverflow survey rust folks so proudly crow about shows it’s the #1 ‘admired’ language, well #2 was closure and Zig over the years which clearly shows the value of the survey. Just marketing slop.

The rust produces safe code claim is also marketing garbage. The rust standard library has over 7.5k (of 35k) unsafe functions in it. The core library has 7K (of 21k) unsafe functions. So any Rust program that claims not to have “unsafe” code is most likely not true since any program that doesn’t use the standard library is a toy.

https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/verify-the-safety-of...

The rust community unearned arrogance is only surpassed by the Haskel folks. It’s breathtaking. Yes yes not all in the rust community are like this, but the social media amplified squeaky wheels one sure are loud.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#799

Post by weberer »

sushidev wrote: post #689

Such a huge discussion and I can’t really understand the problem from reading the comments or some of the excerpts linked. Can anyone explain to me what is the real issue here?

Developer A wants to make a change. Developer B rejects it. Developer A makes a big fuss about it on social media. The creator of the project steps in and chastises Developer A for his behavior.

And as additional context, developer A has a history of causing drama on social media. So much that he even has his own page on KiwiFarms.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#800

Post by tredre3 »

adager wrote: post #545

Marcan hasn't actually resigned. He's still posting on the LKML under a well-known alias. See https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/7/15 for example.

Marcan is still posting to the LKML as himself too and he said he might contribute patches in the future if he feels like it. What he did, and this entire thread is about, is he resigned as a maintainer:

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/1b3291f00013c86a9bb...

So the title is factually correct. But I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to add Lina as a maintainer once things calm down.

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