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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#601

Post by rdtsc »

tsimionescu wrote: post #565
arp242 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

> Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel, but which parts? How? Where? That's the big disagreement. Linus has always been fairly hands-off on these types of disagreements. Some Kernel maintainers are absolutely against Rust anywhere in the kernel tree [0]: > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries…

> > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language complely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this.

If a maintainer of a major subsystem has those objections, it is a good chance to try to convince them otherwise.

If something is not clear, ask him to elaborate.

But blackmailing with a social media campaign is not productive. Even more it’s anti-productive. This just adds to rust=drama=stayaway feeling.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#602

Post by rdtsc »

Aeolun wrote: post #554
rdtsc wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. That's just manipulative. Maybe it's just a moment of frustration and they'd take it back eventually, but blackmailing people with social drama is not cool. That's what X and Reddit is for. > Rust folks: Please don't waste your time and mental cycles on drama like this [...] they know they're going to be on the losing side o…

It’s true though? I don’t see anyone picking C/C++ over Rust/Go in my immediate environment. That might reflect my environment, but all of the things I’d consider C variations for I’d use Rust for as well…

I meant the whole “we are on the right side of history” and if you’re not with us you’re against us and we’ll wage a public drama campaign against you.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#604

Post by hulitu »

19h wrote: post #165

The frustration seems justified. Spending significant time adapting core kernel code or developing a safe Rust abstraction for DMA, only to be summarily shut down by a single gatekeeper who cites "not wanting multiple languages" is demotivating. It's especially incongruent given that others have championed Rust in the kernel, and Linux has begun hosting Rust modules. If the project leadership — i.e. Linus — truly wan…

> Spending significant time adapting core kernel code or developing a safe Rust abstraction for DMA, only to be summarily shut down by a single gatekeeper who cites "not wanting multiple languages" is demotivating

Christoph Hellwig is one of the oldest subsystem maintainer.

Maybe the Rust developer shall have a more careful behaviour. Nobody wants to break core kernel code.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#605

Post by tsimionescu »

rdtsc wrote: post #601
tsimionescu wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel, but which parts? How? Where? That's the big disagreement. Linus has always been fairly hands-off on these types of disagreements. Some Kernel maintainers are absolutely against Rust anywhere in the kernel tree [0]: > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries…

> > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language complely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this. If a maintainer of a major subsystem has those objections, it is a good chance to try to convince them otherwise. If something is not clear, ask him to elaborate. But blackmailing with a social media c…

Oh, yes, the idea of settling anything on social media is horrible.

I was just pointing out that the positions are much more binary and un-nuanced than the previous poster was claiming, even in the thread in question. I'd bet the DMA maintainer is not the only one who holds this dogmatic position, either.

I'll also note that the complaints from this maintainer aren't even social though. He is very explicit in his reasoning: two+ languages bad, single language good. There's clearly little that will change this, other than working around him (though, again, I agree that social media blackmail certainly won't improve anything).

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#608

Post by 59nadir »

Aeolun wrote: post #554
rdtsc wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. That's just manipulative. Maybe it's just a moment of frustration and they'd take it back eventually, but blackmailing people with social drama is not cool. That's what X and Reddit is for. > Rust folks: Please don't waste your time and mental cycles on drama like this [...] they know they're going to be on the losing side o…

It’s true though? I don’t see anyone picking C/C++ over Rust/Go in my immediate environment. That might reflect my environment, but all of the things I’d consider C variations for I’d use Rust for as well…

It's definitely your environment, Rust isn't nearly as popular for actual projects getting done as it is in (for example) StackOverflow's survey. C, C++, Odin and Zig are all languages where whatever C knowledge you have right now can trivially be put to use to do things, immediately, I think it makes perfect sense that unless someone is just really into doing Rust things they'll just take the trivially applicable ways of working and use the aforementioned languages (which all have much better support for batch memory management and custom allocators than Rust, it should be added).

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#609

Post by tptacek »

steveklabnik wrote: post #339
arp242 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"R4L dies" is hyperbolic nonsense. There are many ways/places to integrate Rust in the kernel, even for wrappers. It's not like "I think this code should be someone else" automatically means the death of Rust. Marcan goes full nuclear every other time someone disagrees with him. He's very much the "if it's not my preferred way then we might as well not do it at all"-type of engineer (many of us have worked with those…

Rust is only allowed for drivers, because that sidesteps the platform support questions. DMA is needed for an overwhelming number of useful drivers. If you can’t use DMA from Rust, then you can’t really properly evaluate the usefulness of Rust, hence the effort is basically dead.

I don't know the better way to ask this question, so I'm just going to ask it:

"Congratulations, you're right, and nobody cares."

Now what? Just complain that the kernel isn't hospitable to Rust, and hope 15 years from now we're all using some Linux-compatible kernel built ground-up in Rust?

I genuinely want to know where you go from this position.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#610

Post by tinco »

dralley wrote: post #530
noobermin wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.

This is profoundly silly. First of all because we're talking about the kernel community here, which was incredibly toxic and dramatic long before Rust even existed. Linus has chilled out in the past few years but that legacy isn't entirely gone. C++ drama has nearly come to fistfights at conferences, and the only reason that doesn't get talked about more is that the toxicity stays mostly on private (not public) maili…

I'm a Rust coder who also occasionally watches Prime, and I've never seen Prime casually pour gasoline on fires. Yes his whole business model is reacting to whatever content is hot right now, but he always does so in a considerate and non inflammatory manner.

He's not a fan of Rust for totally legitimate reasons.

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