Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out • Hacker News Board

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#81

Post by whacked_new » Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 4:49 PM UTC

jibiki wrote: post #34

blizkreeg wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept and system of arranged marriages is not something that needs fixing. It has evolved and will continue to evolve to adapt to changing conditions and attitudes among the youth and parents in India. A marriage is much larger than whether it was arranged or born out of (fleeting/puppy/divine/heavenly) love.

The concept and system of _Apartheid_ is not something that needs fixing. It has evolved and will continue to evolve to adapt to changing conditions and attitudes.

This is actually true. You don't have to fix anything. Changing environmental pressures will induce change in any state of affairs as long as there is interaction among agents.

What I just wrote may be controversial, but it does not make it false.

The difference is to what degree does another agent, external to the system in question (here, the system that has apartheid), feels they have the right to intervene and accelerate the change in a direction they judge is fit.

Sometimes you can argue that everybody is better off -- people inside the system and outside (on the outside, I would argue it is mostly a psychological benefit, at least immediately after the change is induced) -- but the arguments are never perfect. And to think that there is a "correct" side to it is (usually) a fallacy.

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#82

Post by ahoyhere » Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 5:43 PM UTC

markessien wrote: post #56

ahoyhere wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're joking, right? The logical flaw in that question isn't poking you in the eyeball as you type? Whenever a society is permissive of divorce, the divorce rate rises. When a society strongly disapproves of divorce (or makes it legally tough), well, that's another matter. There's a high correlation between societies with arranged marriage traditions and a disapproval of divorce. (A->B not necessarily B->A.)

You're right, but at the same time you are not directly addressing the question: Societies where marriages are based of 'love' have a very high divorce rate. Divorce in America or Europe is not easy, it's a long and expensive process. But there is still a 50% or so divorce rate. What the question really boils down to is this: Are people happier in general in societies with predominantly arranged marriages or in socie…

> Divorce in America or Europe is not easy...

Yeah, sure, to Americans and Europeans.

Lots of women (and thus men) live in countries where they are unable to divorce, or able to divorce in only a few very specific and constrainted circumstances... otherwise, tough shit.

And if you want to think about "tough," think about Syria, where apparently the man has legal guardianship of children post-divorce no matter what, even if the kids live with their mother, she cannot make any decision about their lives (such as which doctor to see).

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#83

Post by dkarl » Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 5:46 PM UTC

Hexstream wrote: post #67

param wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you generalized a lot of things there. I personally am arranged married, and I couldn't be happier. I have a lot of friends who are in the same situation (even ones who are 10+ years into marriage). I also know people who married in 'love' that are not so happy today. Additionally, arranged marriages need not be 'see someone for 10 mins and say yes or no'. There is a large variation in how the whole thing can…

"I think you generalized a lot of things there. I personally am arranged married, and I couldn't be happier. I have a lot of friends who are in the same situation (even ones who are 10+ years into marriage). I also know people who married in 'love' that are not so happy today." Of course. If you didn't have the choice of who to marry then you resign yourself to the notion. But if you made the decision yourself then y…

You're right; nobody would ever suffer long-term anger and resentment at decisions that somebody else made for them; it doesn't make sense. It was out of my hands, so I'm totally okay with it! That's why teenagers and their parents get along so well, why women didn't really want the vote, and why working in a bureaucracy is so good for your mental health.

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#84

Post by dkarl » Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 5:58 PM UTC

jibiki wrote: post #48

rsheridan6 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it wasn't 4:30 in the morning, I'd dig up some info about the relative success of arranged marriage vs love marriage. Plenty of Western marriages end up loveless, and divorce is rampant here. It's not clear to me which system would seem more efficient to a hypothetical man from Mars (but as a not-so-hypothetical white American, people I know would think I'm insane for even entertaining the idea that there could be…

Marriages in America frequently break up over money, i.e., one partner wants to spend more than the other. I wonder if the Indian system helps avoid this problem. (Of course, India is a massive and diverse country, and there is no singular "Indian system", but whatever...) > people I know would think I'm insane for even entertaining the idea that there could be redeeming qualities of arranged marriage It's a sad stat…

Marriages in America frequently break up over money, i.e., one partner wants to spend more than the other. I wonder if the Indian system helps avoid this problem.

I don't know about the Indian system, but I know in some East Asian cultures it is normal for the wife to run the household finances. That means the primary spender is financially literate, has a feeling of responsibility, and knows the couple's financial status. Contrast that with the US, where wives often have a very vague grasp of the couple's finances, yet are in charge of most of the spending. American wives can run a man into the ground and then blame him; East Asian wives take pride in maintaining healthy household finances. The downside is that a man can become financially irresponsible if his wife's level of control makes him feel emasculated. The ideal is a true feeling of joint responsibility, and neither system ensures that. It has to emerge from the trust and good faith of both spouses.

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#85

Post by blizkreeg » Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 8:21 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #73

blizkreeg wrote: post #17

I don't quite understand this attitude I've often found here of people to dissect, "try to understand", and take a swipe at what's wrong about other cultures, point out how some attributes of other cultures are so deviant and then take a higher stand, a higher ground on those issues. Frankly, if you haven't been born and/or brought up in a certain culture, you simply will not be able to understand some peculiar aspec…

Frankly, if you haven't been born and/or brought up in a certain culture, you simply will not be able to understand some peculiar aspects about it. I think that's nonsense. Non-controversial statement: Humans manage to use the power of reason to understand all sorts of things which are far outside our own experience such as quantum mechanics, the dynamics of stars, high dimensional geometry, neural networks, etc. Reg…

I agree partly with what you say, it is possible to understand another human experience, by reason, by analysis, by empathy - but only objectively. At least that's my belief. To truly understand it's subtle corners, in a more subjective manner requires being immersed in that experience. IMHO.

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#86

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 9:23 PM UTC

blizkreeg wrote: post #85

yummyfajitas wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, if you haven't been born and/or brought up in a certain culture, you simply will not be able to understand some peculiar aspects about it. I think that's nonsense. Non-controversial statement: Humans manage to use the power of reason to understand all sorts of things which are far outside our own experience such as quantum mechanics, the dynamics of stars, high dimensional geometry, neural networks, etc. Reg…

I agree partly with what you say, it is possible to understand another human experience, by reason, by analysis, by empathy - but only objectively . At least that's my belief. To truly understand it's subtle corners, in a more subjective manner requires being immersed in that experience. IMHO.

I would think an objective understanding is all that is desirable or necessary. I can see a reason to elevate an objective understanding over a subjective one; the understanding is independent of the observer.

The subjective understanding is merely the personal perception of something. It is a joint property of the observer and the thing being observed. Why elevate the subjective understanding of one observer over another (insiders over outsiders, in this case) assuming equal information/rationality on both their parts?

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#87

Post by Hexstream » Tue, Apr 07, 2009, 11:18 AM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #83

Hexstream wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think you generalized a lot of things there. I personally am arranged married, and I couldn't be happier. I have a lot of friends who are in the same situation (even ones who are 10+ years into marriage). I also know people who married in 'love' that are not so happy today." Of course. If you didn't have the choice of who to marry then you resign yourself to the notion. But if you made the decision yourself then y…

You're right; nobody would ever suffer long-term anger and resentment at decisions that somebody else made for them; it doesn't make sense. It was out of my hands, so I'm totally okay with it! That's why teenagers and their parents get along so well, why women didn't really want the vote, and why working in a bureaucracy is so good for your mental health.

No no, seriously. There was a TED presentation about this unintuitive phenomenon. It was posted here a while ago.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_...

edit: Fixed the link, it wasn't the one I meant to link to.

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#88

Post by dkarl » Tue, Apr 07, 2009, 5:24 PM UTC

Hexstream wrote: post #87

dkarl wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right; nobody would ever suffer long-term anger and resentment at decisions that somebody else made for them; it doesn't make sense. It was out of my hands, so I'm totally okay with it! That's why teenagers and their parents get along so well, why women didn't really want the vote, and why working in a bureaucracy is so good for your mental health.

No no, seriously. There was a TED presentation about this unintuitive phenomenon. It was posted here a while ago. http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_... edit: Fixed the link, it wasn't the one I meant to link to.

Yeah, I know you're serious. I'm just pointing out that there's a difference (and evidently one that is important psychologically) between a situation where there is only one possibility and a situation where there are many possibilities, but somebody else chooses for you. I know people who stayed angry for years because their parents made them go to a certain college or their boss canceled a product line they created.

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#89

Post by queensnake » Tue, Apr 07, 2009, 11:14 PM UTC

markessien wrote: post #52

randomwalker wrote: post #11

Or, maybe, here's a radical thought--the next time one of these men meets someone he likes, he could ask her out. The whole arranged marriage nonsense is a blight on the Indian community. Needless to say, it often leads to loveless marriages; further, the fact that you're making life decisions based on scant information results in bizarre situations like the consultant in the article who can't find a wife because the…

How do you explain the very high divorce rate in societies with non-arranged marriages then? Should such societies not have a very high success rate, since the individuals make their own choices?

It's my theory that in arranged-marriage lands, there's more social support; the husband and wife play slotted roles, more, in a larger social millieu. In the West, the couple is on their own more, they're each other's /everything/. The demand on each is higher, the fit has to be better.

Re: Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out

#90

Post by queensnake » Tue, Apr 07, 2009, 11:33 PM UTC

blizkreeg wrote: post #21

DannoHung wrote: post #5

India has some weird cultural aspects that I do not find appealing personally. I had an Indian friend on a H1-B who talked a lot about getting a wife that cooked and cleaned and stuff and I always asked him, "Why not just hire a maid? Probably be cheaper." He could never come up with a good response. I guess these attitudes come from being raised in a culture where it's the norm. I've got another few friends who are…

Your comments are really quite naive and dumb. I'm an Indian and I don't expect you to even find these aspects appealing. Hell, even I don't find them appealing. But your language "I guess these attitudes come from being raised in a culture where it's the norm" is derogatory. Please refrain from such attacking comments. Many educated and progressive Indians are aware of these aspects and attitudes are changing. But i…

Wait, so DannoHung says:

"I guess these attitudes come from being raised in a culture where it's the norm. "

You:

> Your comments are really quite naive and dumb.

and:

> ... aware of these aspects and attitudes are changing. But it's a culture ... and deep-rooted aspects about cultures don't change overnight...

Well which is it?

And you insult him no less.