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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#771
post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they gave a list of policy differences - and justified them with an emotional argument: "cruel". They said nothing about the pragmatic justification of them. Which is exactly my point: the left tends to operate on ideological emotional values. They could have said things like 'reproductive rights leads to X goods for the populace' or 'prohibition was a net positive in Y ways' or 'minimum wage laws are shown to im…

They used examples where almost every reasonable American knows what the right and wrong side of history ended up being. He doesn’t need to teach us with detailed policy that slavers ended up on the wrong side of history — we all know.

The point he's responding to is about epistemology - how the conclusion is come to, not what the conclusion is.

And 'wrong side of history' (bandwagon fallacy) and references to 'cruelty' (appeal to emotions) is really, really bad epistemology.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#772

Six months ago I would have endorsed wide-scale deportations, but after seeing the consequences—families swept into jails, plain-clothes officers ambushing people on their way to work or school, and communities living in constant fear—it’s clear that indiscriminate removals are neither practical nor just. This approach diverts resources from pursuing violent offenders, erodes faith in the rule of law, and forces the…

Assuming that this is truthful about your changing perceptions (not just a familiar astroturf tactic of "I used to think X, but now Y"), that's really commendable.

It seems we don't learn and revise much lately; we mostly just get angry and try to score points against the opposing team.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“End Jus Soli” would require a constitutional amendment and would be universally opposed by at least one party. So, it is bringing the conversation in the direction of ridiculous out-there topics.

And it can cause headaches with people being stateless because neither the country of their parents nor the country of their birth recognizes them. And that's something that's normally prohibited by treaty: you can't take an action that will render someone stateless.

Is that really so? It seems odd because not every country has soil-based birthright citizenship. So, there must be some combinations that will result in a stateless person (although I would expect that this is an exceptional case that is just handled as an exception).

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respect for law, like any other kind of respect, has to be earned. If you pass nonsensical, or worse yet, outright evil laws, not only will they not be respected, but one can reasonably argue that it is a moral duty to disrespect them and assist in their breaking. The Underground Railroad is a prominent historical example of this.

Do you think restriction of immigration is a case of nonsensical or outright evil law? Do you think law abiding deportation of illegal immigrants is morally justified in concept? no matter where you land on this, it stands that division on the topic is a top point of conflict in the US. I dont think either side claiming to be above the law helps move society in a more productive direction >Respect for law, like any o…

You posit a false dichotomy here. The law isn't just about what is prohibited, but also about what the consequences are, and how it is enforced. One doesn't need to believe that e.g. stealing should be legal to oppose on moral grounds a law that says thieves get the death penalty.

Let me ask you directly: do you believe that people who smuggled away slaves into freedom, back when US had legalized slavery on large parts of its territory, were in the wrong and didn't "help move society in a more productive direction"?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#775
post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember Willem van Spronsen? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Tacoma_immigration_detent...

His daughter I can only imagine how full of grief she was to learn that her dad suicided in such a wasteful way. Love, and hope will defeat facism

What was the last time love and hope defeated fascism anywhere?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

man idk, maybe it was the long conservative rule after the crash? Maybe it was the long austerity? Maybe it was the huge mass of natives that voted to crash out of an agreement with a bloc that handles over 80% of their trade? More seriously... - for US: The newest NBER IV estimates put the wage effect of all 2000-19 US immigration at +2 % for non-college natives. Show me a UK study of similar vintage that finds anyt…

Got a link to that NBER study? It's not that I don't believe you or think you're making it up, but I would like to understand what instrumental variable they were using to make the claim that an increase of low skilled immigration makes wages for non-college educated natives go up .

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w32389/w323...

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter argument to what? You posted a list of things that look like a copy/pasta from last year's campaign trail. Unrelated to my point, only true at the margins.

You’re approaching bad faith. Was the stock market at historic highs. Yes Was inflation falling and the lowest in the OECD. Yes I am not going to go point by point. And they aren’t “true at the margins” when taken together as a whole. They are a manifestation of a broad policy that created improved conditions in the country that would have continued. And the CHIPS act was the exact policy to set us in the course for…

Eh, I think you're mostly arguing with a strawman, and want to make points that have nothing to do with what is being discussed.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not about knowledge. It’s about having people willing to use their strong backs. Very few agricultural products are harvestable without the use of hands at the current prices. And when states have cracked down on illegal immigrants, farmers cry bloody murder that native-born Americans can’t last 1-2 days doing that work. American living standards are FAR higher than those of the people who are willing to work ag…

Okay. Then build robots to do it. Have you thought for a second about why these robots don't already exist? Perhaps it has something to do with available cheap labor. Really really strange to see a pro-immigration argument that amounts to "Big Ag needs their slave labor".

There wasn't even a single, popular vacuum robot with less then 7% one star ratings (complaints with valid utter failure). How naïve must one be to expect decent robots for farming. And those very soon? Do you believe in Santa? Or Tesla FSD?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got a link to that NBER study? It's not that I don't believe you or think you're making it up, but I would like to understand what instrumental variable they were using to make the claim that an increase of low skilled immigration makes wages for non-college educated natives go up .

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w32389/w323...

I skimmed this and read a few sections closely. Most econometric papers spend too much time rambling on about stuff that most people who actually seek out and read these things already know. Anyway, +2.6% in wages for non-college educated natives, over 20 years, is not a ringing endorsement. I honestly doubt anyone would notice this, and over two decades that's just noise, frankly. If I'm understanding one of the central claims correctly, it's not that low skilled immigrants "took" jobs from natives, it's that natives ended up working more, and as a result their earning power increased. That's ... also not a ringing endorsement. Sure, you didn't get fired in favor of an immigrant, but you had to take a second shift to stay in the game. Wow what a benefit.

I'm also going to quibble a bit with how they constructed this Instrumental Variable. The way it's constructed, the higher the turnover (for lack of a better term) from native to foreign, the better the predictor it is (because in their theory, it's exogenous to wages at the local level). Does anyone really believe this? Immigrants respond to incentives just like anyone else. They're not choosing to immigrate to Sac City, Iowa, or any other low-COL/low-wage town, for a reason. It also doesn't answer my original question, which was central to my initial claim: why? The "why" is going to answer a lot of other layered questions about hostility to ever-increasing immigration. Are firms moving in that exploit low-wage immigrants, generating other adjacent economic activity? Probably! Not controlled for or referenced at all in this, and this paper is by no means a definitive conclusion that high low-skill immigration is good (even on a two decade timeline, which even typing that is just absurd).

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Then build robots to do it. Have you thought for a second about why these robots don't already exist? Perhaps it has something to do with available cheap labor. Really really strange to see a pro-immigration argument that amounts to "Big Ag needs their slave labor".

There wasn't even a single, popular vacuum robot with less then 7% one star ratings (complaints with valid utter failure). How naïve must one be to expect decent robots for farming. And those very soon? Do you believe in Santa? Or Tesla FSD?

A little difficult to parse your comment, but I think you're calling me naïve for asking the tech community on a message board for the incubator that has backed and does back the some of the most successful tech startups ever to think a little more deeply about how to solve these kinds of problems with technology. Wherein I posit that one of the reasons this tech community seemingly lacks interest - and surely the difficulty of the problem is also one of those reasons - is the availability of cheap labor, resulting in a weak argument for funding this kind of venture.

Interesting.

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