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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#681

Post by shadowgovt »

koolba wrote: post #361
blinky81 wrote: post #354

I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life. Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society. I also take issue with the idea that this extreme exclusionary mindset is somehow new to America. A lot of people fra…

> I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life. Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society. I have no issue with legal immigration. Far from it, I’m in favor of attracting the best, brightest, and most hard…

Rights imply an obligation.

What we're doing right now isn't working, isn't sustainable, and ignores several realities of how we interact with our neighboring nations (and, indeed, is a new problem... The current tight-border regime isn't even half a century old).

At what point do we decide that if the laws are broken that often, perhaps it's because they're bad laws that are too incompatible with reality to be practically enforced successfully? We could pass a law that requires you to hover three inches off the ground; do we blame you if you don't start levitating?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#682

Post by shadowgovt »

koolba wrote: post #631
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They’re cheating "Of course, 'It is illegal and unconstitutional to deport, detain for deportation, or recommend deportation of a U.S. citizen.' See Lyttle v. United States, 867 F.Supp.2d 1256 (M.D. Ga. 2012) (citing Tuan Anh Nguyen v. Immigration & Naturalization Serv., 533 U.S. 53, 67 (2001) (affirming that a citizen has the 'absolute right to enter [the United States] borders'); Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618…

If you read the complete sentence you’d realize I’m referring to cheating against every other potential immigrant to come to the USA. > To the extent someone is unequivocally cheating, it's ICE. So what exactly is ICE supposed to do if they are deporting the illegal alien mother and child is a citizen? Forget the possibility of a deported father. Say a single mother with no legal status is being deported. Does she no…

In a debate between the concrete reality of US children being kicked out of the country and hypothetical potential non-citizens not being able to become a citizen, I will side with the child every time. I don't think that's a radical position.

Here's an interesting question: are undocumented immigrants actually stopping non-citizens from becoming citizens? These two things are actually quite independent, yes? You're building a very similar argument to "piracy is bad because it takes money out of the hands of the RIAA."

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#683

Post by throwaway48476 »

bee_rider wrote: post #678
throwaway48476 wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foreign citizenship is being subject to a foreign power.

I don’t see any connection here.

Birthright citizenship doesn't apply to children born to parents subject to a foreign power. That's what the text of the ammendment says.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#684

Post by chokolad »

weaksauce wrote: post #546
nineplay wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MLK said it best: "the moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" Are you a moderate who has a better plan? I ask that sincerely, if I've given up its not because I prefer peace but because I know a losing battle when I see one. We don't have a charismatic leader like MLK. The democratic pa…

> Are you a moderate who has a better plan? stop supporting moderate politicians that appeal to no damn person. find someone with charisma like obama. there is no magical moderate voter that the dems keep hoping to appeal to. they already have been the center right party for decades now.

> find someone with charisma like obama.

Obama was a moderate politician with massive charisma

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#685

Post by JackYoustra »

AustinDev wrote: post #655
JackYoustra wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I mostly agree with you, but I kinda want to keep going on the sovereignty thing. Prosecutorial discretion and state incapacity to prosecute every crime has existed... literally forever. Sovereignty only means "supreme power or authority" - I don't see how migrants threaten it, it's not like they're trying to lead an insurrection or anything.

Sovereignty may have been an imprecise word choice for sure. However, I do not think having 10's of millions of people in the country without legal status who can be easily abused is 'a good thing'. I also don't think amnesty is a viable solution. So mass remigration is the only real solution I see. As we approach a post-labor economy over the coming decades how many more people do we actually need? I don't know I'm…

The free market will determine the best place for these people without arbitrary categories that you've given, we should let in basically anyone who wants to come. NGOs are good. They should stay, it helps with integration and placement.

I don't see why you create random liberalization rules and call it free market, those are as arbitrary as the ones we currently have. People should be free to move where they want with only the same small checks we have in place for visitor visas.

> I don't know I'm not an economist but, my gut tells me not a whole lot.

please read the literature, it's now easier than ever with gpt web + most researchers pitching their work on twitter

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#686

Post by JackYoustra »

annexrichmond wrote: post #669
JackYoustra wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "more supply equals lower wages" argument is demolished by top economic research. A recent NBER study calculated that "immigration, thanks to native-immigrant complementarity and college skill content of immigrants, had a positive and significant effect between +1.7 to +2.6% on wages of less educated native workers" between 2000-2019. The economy isn't zero-sum. As Milton Friedman noted, "most economic fallacies…

Strawman. You're talking about wages and jobs in aggregate which wasn't my argument at all. Nothing you said addresses how my salary is affected in the industry the person is joining. Sure, in total, other jobs may be created and growth is increased -- it's essentially a tautology.

I don't know why you think you're entitled to any particular job due to government policy, that seems like a really poor and inefficient way to run an economy.

Feels like "DOGE for thee, but not for me"

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#687

Post by lazyeye »

cryptoegorophy wrote: post #441
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

What’s the conversation? Separating kids from parents or deporting them with parents because we don’t want them to be separate? There is no question about breaking the law by parents. Question is do you let children be with their mothers(who apparently asked to do so) or no. As someone who came legally to Canada and went through thorough screening of 4 years before coming I just don’t get how people are ok with “chea…

[flagged]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#688

Post by s1artibartfast »

int_19h wrote: post #674
s1artibartfast wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the rhetoric that drove the country to this point. They are here illegally. They can exist elsewhere legally. Respect for law is critical, and valorizing the breaking it undermines the very concept of society. If you want more immigration, work to increase legal quotas and update the law.

Respect for law, like any other kind of respect, has to be earned. If you pass nonsensical, or worse yet, outright evil laws, not only will they not be respected, but one can reasonably argue that it is a moral duty to disrespect them and assist in their breaking. The Underground Railroad is a prominent historical example of this.

Do you think restriction of immigration is a case of nonsensical or outright evil law? Do you think law abiding deportation of illegal immigrants is morally justified in concept?

no matter where you land on this, it stands that division on the topic is a top point of conflict in the US. I dont think either side claiming to be above the law helps move society in a more productive direction

>Respect for law, like any other kind of respect, has to be earned.

If someone choses to disregard the the law, this puts them in conflict with those who do care about it, and they will often seek to force obedience.

If I find you breaking in my house, I dont care about earning your respect, at least not in a way that you would enjoy.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#689

Post by digitaltrees »

timewizard wrote: post #539
intermerda wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distrust of the press has been cultivated intentionally. A POTUS saying "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening" would have been seen too farcical for a comedy. And yet here we are.

> The distrust of the press has been cultivated intentionally. Yea, by the press itself, or, do you honestly believe the billionaire owner class of this form of media has done an excellent job reporting truthfully over the past 30 years? Pull yourself back from your politics and genuinely consider this.

Do a retrospective, you’ll see there are media outlets that have given accurate information and assessments of the world. The measure should be whether what they report holds true as time passes and whether, using their reporting to extrapolate predictions, do those predictions come true.

Your pessimism in all media is unfounded.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#690

Post by belorn »

nineplay wrote: post #515
whoknowsidont wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but the truly damned are all the Americans who know and sense better but do not or cannot act properly. MLK said it best: "the moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" And even now you have people that think showing up with clever signs around the downtown parks / public areas on the weeke…

> MLK said it best: "the moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" Are you a moderate who has a better plan? I ask that sincerely, if I've given up its not because I prefer peace but because I know a losing battle when I see one. We don't have a charismatic leader like MLK. The democratic pa…

When it comes to divisive issues such as DEI, a way to bridge the beliefs of both sides is to not engage with far side of either spectrum but rather deploy something that unite people like the European declaration of human rights. The far left would loose the ability to address past injustices, and the far right would have to agree with the enforcement of equal rights over personal belief, but the general concept has a very broad appeal to both left and right wing voters.
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