NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#771

Post by compscistd » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:24 AM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #519

tehwebguy wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe people should be able to choose what they put in their own bodies You still can, with limited exceptions: * Kids need to be vaccinated against ~9 ailments before they attend school (seems mandatory but homeschool is an option in every state) * Adults need to be vaccinated against one before they patronize indoor restaurants, entertainment venues and gyms (completely optional activities and only in the den…

> Adults need to be vaccinated against one before they patronize indoor restaurants, entertainment venues and gyms (completely optional activities and only in the densest city in the US, probably some others will follow) Also, adults that want to attend college classes on campus need to provide schools with proof of vaccination for about a half-dozen diseases. This was the case 20+ years ago, and it's still the case…

So why did vaccinations suddenly become a huge problem with people today? Are these people who were never going to go to college but would have caused a fuss if the school demanded vaccination records? Or is it the right politicizing a health issue with misinformation? Maybe it’s even the left pushing vaccines that suddenly has people reflexively twitching their combative muscles?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Post by heartbreak » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:24 AM UTC

chitowneats wrote: post #757

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The supreme court ruled that it's legal to mandate vaccinations in 1905. Boston fined people for not getting a smallpox vaccine. This seems like a better option to me. Don't want to get vaccinated? Fine. Have a valid medical reason, pay a $2500 fee, or leave the city. >90% of people will just get vaccinated.

The result of this would be that many black and latino residents in, for example, the Bronx, would be fined more than they can afford or literally expelled from NYC.

“ >90% of people will just get vaccinated.”

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Post by PhineasRex » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:27 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #347

mcguire wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals. " That would be false. https://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/hn/immunization.asp which points to https://www.shotsforschool.org/child-care/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/7th-grade/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/ And then there's https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-8-part-b-chapter-...

We have never required anything like this to go to a restaurant . Or the gym. Or the beach. This is a huge new step. Pointing out that children must be vaccinated against viruses that disproportionately harm children in order to participate in public education is true, but irrelevant to the question. Pointing out that we require certain vaccinations of immigrants is true, but irrelevant to the question. (Not for noth…

This is not true. When the smallpox vaccine was being rolled out many restaurants, social clubs, and other places of congregation required proof of vaccination.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Post by XorNot » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:31 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #129

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations

Those populations are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves, and don't need you to do it for them. You have an opinion, don't dress it up in someone else's situation.

The current leading population for vaccination rate in Alabama is the band of majority black districts (and subsequently case numbers have gone down and down and down) there.

You know what those populations are at risk from? Crippling hospital debt from contracting preventable diseases being spread by people pushing antivax nonsense and who do not take preventative measures. And being shot at their jobs when asking those people to wear masks on private property, for some reason.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Post by lmm » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:31 AM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #709

timr wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

> an overall risk of illness and death that is on par with every other year I have been alive. The excess death statistics would like to have a word with you, but more importantly: > If I ever become so afraid of death that I demand that other people give up their basic human rights Are basic human rights really what we're talking about here? If so, they've always had limits when it came to impacts on others. The fre…

> The excess death statistics would like to have a word with you

What do excess deaths of vaccinated people look like?

> "Basic human rights" may well not quite reach into unqualified access to "indoor dining, in indoor fitness facilities, indoor entertainment facilities."

This is disingenuous. Freedom of peaceful assembly is widely recognised as a basic right.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Post by 360walk » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:32 AM UTC

chaps wrote: post #684

timr wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

Okay, so then you die. Nihilism is your choice, so that's cool I guess. But your post is about you, and only you, fullstop. There are other people out there, despite whatever solipsistic beliefs you have. With an R0 value of 6, you're statistically likely to infect 6 other people. Why is that acceptable to you?

R0 of an infection is the expected number of cases directly generated by one case in a population where all individuals are susceptible to infection.

We are nowhere near all people in a population being susceptible to infection with the vaccine rollout (and the people that are susceptible, it's their choice.)

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Post by werber » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:32 AM UTC

This is the first hn thread I’ve been unable to finish due to bias fatigue (usually it’s oh, I guess I should be working) I don’t feel that I’ve learned anything new, but I feel a schism with no resolution.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#778

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:34 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #659

Barrin92 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

You don't have a basic human right to go into buildings that other people own.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#779

Post by moksly » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:34 AM UTC

mariodiana wrote: post #119

Anyone who thinks that government and Big Tech are going to setup a platform just for this one disease and just for the duration of the pandemic are simply not fit to vote in a free country. This is the beginnings of a social credit system, à la China/Gattaca.

Well, here in the civilised world where we’re about done with the vaccination we’re also almost done with the restrictions and required proof of vaccination/recent test.

Of course we can both be right. I mean, if you can’t achieve herd immunity for some reason, then you can never really stop the requirement for proof either. But then, if a country has so many adult babies that it can’t achieve hers immunity through vaccination during a pandemic, maybe it needs to be run like a kindergarten (which you coincidentally can’t attend unless you’re vaccinated).

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#780

Post by cobbzilla » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:34 AM UTC

mlang23 wrote: post #723

timr wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

Thanks for having the courage to write this. I couldnt agree more. I find the risk assessment argument of the thread parent really twisted. Younger people effectively have no risk of dying from covid. Elderly have. And now, the left is trying to force everyone to vaccinate, no matter how good or bad their immune system might be. This world has become a place I actually really dont want to live in. If this trend reall…

What you are describing could be called geritocracy, which is a bit of a pejorative, implying negative outcomes, particularly for the young. But then consider Florida, with the most old folks per capita, and what their policies and outcomes have been.