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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#341

Post by ajsnigrutin »

chadash wrote: post #46
polote wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

Alternatively, I'd be much more comfortable going out if I knew everyone around me would be vaccinated.

But a lot of them can still be positive (i think 30% with AZ vaccine), and somehow noone tests the vaccinated ones, so you'd never know, and most of them are asymptomatic, so they don't even know it.

I got my vaccine early on, and haven't been tested since.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#342

Post by gr1zzlybe4r »

muhfreedomz wrote: post #268
gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #137

This is the point where we have to stop making trade offs of choice and liberty in the name of "security". Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. The moralization and judgement about the vaccine has become ludicrous. If you're scared to do things around others even if you're vaccinated, then that's fine. We cannot accept a societ…

> in the name of "security" It's in the name of not spreading a deadly virus, not security with scare quotes.

The mortality rate for younger individuals is very low, and was low prior to a vaccine being available. We are almost 20 months into this pandemic. The virus is definitely more lethal for at risk groups but the lethality for the general population is overblown.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#343

Post by throwaway842384 »

sprafa wrote: post #94

By not getting vaccinated you are pushing the onus of responsibility to society. When you occupy a bed in a hospital for a preventable disease (like covid post-vaccine) you are a detriment to society. You are occupying precious resources because you were dumb. Just dumb. No ifs or buts - we need to start calling out stupidity again. We already handle people occupying hospital resources with self inflicted diseases, l…

Now let's do obesity. From the CDC [1]:

> From 1999–2000 through 2017 –2018, US obesity prevalence increased from 30.5% to 42.4%. During the same time, the prevalence of severe obesity increased from 4.7% to 9.2%.

> Obesity-related conditions include heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer. These are among the leading causes of preventable, premature death.

> The estimated annual medical cost of obesity in the United States was $147 billion in 2008. Medical costs for people who had obesity was $1,429 higher than medical costs for people with healthy weight.

Also, if the government really cared about the health of the population, why aren't they mandating exercise or dietary health?

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#344

Post by AngryData »

corey_moncure wrote: post #125
mthoms wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rights end when exercising them endangers my life and the lives of my family. That’s also a basic tenet of civil society (see traffic laws for example).

My body, my choice only applies when we're talking about terminating the lives of unborn children, right?

So is using spermicidal lube considered killing children?

A ball of cells and flesh that cannot survive outside of another human does not and should not have human rights. Otherwise we gotta start considering the human rights of cancerous growths.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#345

Post by ghthor »

908B64B197 wrote: post #193
gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #137

This is the point where we have to stop making trade offs of choice and liberty in the name of "security". Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. The moralization and judgement about the vaccine has become ludicrous. If you're scared to do things around others even if you're vaccinated, then that's fine. We cannot accept a societ…

> Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. Exactly. Governments need to figure out why people aren't getting vaccinated and fix those issues.

I'm not getting it because I had covid before it was even cool(Jan 2020). I also have zero trust in the FDA(See Docu Bleeding Edge) have experienced AE and SAE personally from flu, tdap and hep vaccines and I've watched my step daughter go from speaking and developing normally to pissing herself while rocking and screaming, to be told by medical staff that "it's impossible this was caused by the vaccine, take some ibuprofen".

So yeah, multiple levels, very little trust in the "system" to take care of me and my family.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#346

Post by Miner49er »

cyberpsybin wrote: post #297
srcreigh wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Unvaccinated people know the risks and they've had plenty of time to be vaccinated. It's not illegal to decide to do $XYZ_DANGEROUS_ACTIVITY, why should it be illegal to be exposed to covid? The only concern in theory is that a vaccine-immune covid variant could develop amongst unvaccinated populations. I…

Mutations. More dangerous variants. Delta variant came from India where disease ran rampant few months ago.

Yeah, and mutations are most likely going to continue coming from the billions outside the US that are unvaccinated. We'd be much better off spending time getting people outside the US that want to be vaccinated vaccinated then worrying about the holdouts here.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#347

Post by timr »

mcguire wrote: post #301
timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

" We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals. " That would be false. https://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/hn/immunization.asp which points to https://www.shotsforschool.org/child-care/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/7th-grade/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/ And then there's https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-8-part-b-chapter-...

We have never required anything like this to go to a restaurant. Or the gym. Or the beach. This is a huge new step.

Pointing out that children must be vaccinated against viruses that disproportionately harm children in order to participate in public education is true, but irrelevant to the question. Pointing out that we require certain vaccinations of immigrants is true, but irrelevant to the question.

(Not for nothing: we require immigrants to pass a citizenship test and a background check, too. If the standard is "anything that is OK for US immigration is OK for going to Chick-Fil-A", then we're going to have to disagree...)

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#348

Post by paganel »

polote wrote: post #25
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> "zero covid spaces"

As a tangent, I wish we would get rid of this "zero covid spaces" mania, makes having a reasonable discussion between those who want to continue our lives as normal as possible given the circumstances (I am one of them) and those who want to get back to an illusory "pre-covid normal" basically impossible.

One of my grand-mothers died of tuberculosis about 10 years ago. Imo it's as nasty a death as death by covid is. A quick web search tells me 1.4 million people die of TB each year, I suppose an average of 1.4 million (give or take a few hundred-thousands) have died of TB each year for the last half-century at least. Nobody ever talked about us disrupting our daily lives in order to bring TB cases to zero.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#349

Post by _-david-_ »

closeparen wrote: post #299
_-david-_ wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you are for mandatory vaccine of every communicable disease right? Every person should be required to have ebola, flu and every other vaccine before they go to a bar. If you do not support this then you believe in letting viruses circulate in the bars.

You don't need an ebola vaccine because you're not going to encounter ebola at a bar. The few outbreaks which occurred in the US were contained through tracing and isolation.

Ok, then what about the flu vaccine? Thousands die in the US every year from it.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#350

Post by ashtonkem »

ysavir wrote: post #47
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #39

To preface: I got the vaccine months ago (as soon as I had access), I'm a big believer in vaccines. With that being said, this policy doesn't sit well with me. None of the currently available vaccines in the US are FDA approved. Of course, a lot of people have received those vaccines, but I also don't necessarily fault individuals for feeling hesitant (the nuance here is that I think people ought to get the vaccine).…

>If the vaccine is as effective as it seems, then this decision feels positively nanny state to me. It takes away an individual's agency to inform themselves of the risks on both sides and make an informed decision If this were mandating that every resident of NYC must be vaccinated, I would agree. But it's not doing that. It's only saying that anyone wanting to dine (or possibly shop, too) indoors, that is, in space…

It’s a bit like cars. Own whatever you want, but the state has a say in what is and is not allowed on the roads they built and maintain.
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