It appears to me (based on Providence breakthrough infections) that vaccinated people are actually more likely to spread the (delta) COVID because their symptoms allow them to continue daily activities while at the same time they shed the same amount of virus as vaccinated.
NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
701–710 of 1001 posts
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#702Earlier quoted context omitted.
> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…
Okay, so then you die. Nihilism is your choice, so that's cool I guess. But your post is about you, and only you, fullstop. There are other people out there, despite whatever solipsistic beliefs you have. With an R0 value of 6, you're statistically likely to infect 6 other people. Why is that acceptable to you?
What is the specific acceptable level of risk to expose others to? Please quantify, and show your work. If you're criticizing others on that basis then there must be a quantitative limit.
And note that the limit can't be 0. Real life always involves some risk.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#703Earlier quoted context omitted.
> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…
Okay, so then you die. Nihilism is your choice, so that's cool I guess. But your post is about you, and only you, fullstop. There are other people out there, despite whatever solipsistic beliefs you have. With an R0 value of 6, you're statistically likely to infect 6 other people. Why is that acceptable to you?
I don’t get “nihilism” from any of that. It is just a healthy attitude about life and death, an attitude that is apparently not even close to universal in our culture.
I can try to understand the other side, but please do the same. Pretty much everyone has been disappointed by humanity this year, and we’re all feeling roughly the same emotions even though we have radically different worldviews.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#704Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you not show your ID at a bar? What privacy are you giving up here?
Do they scan it with a call to the cloud to verify it? That's the real threat here - continuous tracking, ability to turn it off or geo fence you to a certain area.
Actually, I lived in a texas county where some (all?) of the bars required ID scans that I can only assume called the cloud to verify/store data
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#705Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're ignoring that a significant portion of #2 have already got resistance via infection. There is no point whatsoever for those people to get vaccinated, apart from padding out the pockets of Big Pharma. With the scale of vaccinations that we already have, COVID is firmly in the realm of influenza in terms of potential future deathtoll. In fact, for much of this year the UK had higher influenza deaths than COVID d…
>There is no point whatsoever for those people to get vaccinated False, the vaccine is more effective than antibodies from a previous infection. It's not a huge difference, but it is absolutely statistically significant.
This message has been brought to you by Pfizer.
Source or GTFO
EDIT: Your downvotes are delicious as you provide no source. The notion of vaccine immunity being stronger than natural immunity, especially with mRNA vaccines, is absurd. You are generating response to a single surface protein of the virus. The virus has many surface proteins and a natural infection will tune the immune system to respond to all of them. There is no evidence of vaccine immunity being stronger than natural.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#706Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…
your "poor and minority populations" argument strikes me as disingenuous bad faith; if there are poor and minority populations who dont want to be vaccinated, they will be safer by not going into crowded spaces as well. but above all, some of us have children under 12. we'd like them to be safe. we have relatives who have weakened immune systems, who are in great danger even though they are fully vaccinated. These ar…
Coercing poor & minority populations into bending to the will of the powerful, and saying it's for their own good has a long and tragic history. I am not sure whether your argument is in bad faith, but it does seem willfully ignorant of history.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#707Earlier quoted context omitted.
The government does not have carte-blanche authority to strip people of any liberty that isn’t strictly necessary for survival. The government stripping life of all its “luxuries” just looks like being in prison (except at least prisoners are allowed to go to the gym).
Sounds very dystopian when you describe it outside the context of a life-saving measure. I don't like the idea of a "government stripping life of all its luxuries" either. ...but are you sure they don't have that authority? There have been plenty of times I've had luxuries stripped in the last two years. What about enjoyable, luxurious substances? International travel to exciting places? Driving around without a seat…
It sounds dystopian because it is.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#708Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those vaccines have had years of use behind them. The coronavirus mRNA vaccines are a completely new technology and haven't even been given anything past emergency approval. This is an apples and oranges comparison.
"The coronavirus mRNA vaccines are a completely new technology" There have been mRNA vaccines in human clinical trials for around 10 years and they have been studied for around 30 years. There are countless examples of other non-controversial medicines developed and studied for far shorter lengths of time.
>in human clinical trials for around 10 years
And no approval. In other words, this is a dangerous class of drug that has failed to obtain a single human-use approval in 30 years. Thanks for the info!
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#709Earlier quoted context omitted.
> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…
> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…
> an overall risk of illness and death that is on par with every other year I have been alive.
The excess death statistics would like to have a word with you, but more importantly:
> If I ever become so afraid of death that I demand that other people give up their basic human rights
Are basic human rights really what we're talking about here?
If so, they've always had limits when it came to impacts on others. The freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of someone's nose; the freedom to spread certain pathogens might end there as well.
Of course, the article here is talking about vaccination as a condition for participation in venues where density and proximity is a concern. "Basic human rights" may well not quite reach into unqualified access to "indoor dining, in indoor fitness facilities, indoor entertainment facilities." Hell, it's hard to actually make an totally unqualified case for bodily autonomy itself, even though that's a good principle to start from, it isn't the only one.
Basic human rights were not lost from the world by smallpox or other vaccination mandates. They wouldn't be destroyed even if there were going to be a federal mandate for covid vaccination, which doesn't even seem to be on the horizon. They are certainly not going to be destroyed by proof of vaccination being required for entry to restaurants and gymns.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#710Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wrong. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts
this is not enforcing vaccination it is denying services based on vaccination status. i think there is a distinction. like what if a state decided to make the franchise dependent on whether your were vaccinated or not in order to 'encourage' people to vaccinate similar to how they are trying to deny people access to indoor dining in order to 'encourage' people to vaccinate. i'm sure that would be challenged under the…
Reminds me when in California they shut off the water to someone's house when they had a party during lockdown. [1]
They knew arresting them wouldn't work, so instead they went with what they thought was more of legal grey area, just shut off their access to water. They're not forcing you to get vaccinated you see, you could obviously just buy bottled water!