NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#681

Post by _ph_ » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:26 PM UTC

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #158

threatofrain wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the vaccine is as effective as it seems, then this decision feels positively nanny state to me. It takes away an individual's agency to inform themselves of the risks on both sides and make an informed decision. Do people feel the same way about schools requiring vaccines, or children getting the MMR, Hep B, or Polio vaccines?

As I clearly mentioned, this vaccine is not FDA approved. We have no idea of the long term effects. I find it fairly reasonable to not want to be a test subject.

If it makes you feel safer, come to Europe and recieve a shot with fully approved vaccines.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#682

Post by Auracle » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

datameta wrote: post #612

bingohbangoh wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won’t there always be a variant popping up somewhere in some part of the world though? The idea that “if we all got vaccinated, we could have zero variants” reeks of “zero COVID” thinking

More unvaccinated people -> more people getting covid -> more chances for mutation into variants It's really that simple. We want as few active infections as possible globally so that existing vaccinations can work for the variants they were made in mind with. Otherwise we will be at the disadvantage in a perpetual arms race trying to quickly stamp out the global "fires" of new variants.

In a world where the delta variant can infect fully vaccinated people fairly easily, aren’t the vaccinated the real problem? The unvaccinated aren’t putting any particular pressure on the virus when it comes to evolving around the vaccines, but the vaccinated are.

Unless we could magically get the cases to zero this problem isn’t going away. Mask mandates will slow things, but eventually you’ll need enough people to actually get infected to drop the replication rate.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#683

Post by AndrewBissell » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #523

cm2187 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if they are 20 or already had covid.

> Not if they are 20 or already had covid We have inconclusive data on the protection past infection affords with respect to the Delta variant. We have decent data showing the mRNA vaccines work. We also have inconclusive but pointed data about the Delta variant being more problematic for younger people [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/health/covid-young-adults...

At this point when I see "comprehensive data is lacking" in some NYT article hyping the Covid threat I just close the tab. About a week ago they were trying to say children were dying in droves from the Delta wave in Indonesia based entirely on the testimony of one doctor who was probably confusing TB for Covid. Two weeks ago they were saying the J&J vaccine was useless against Delta based on a dodgy study that contradicted all sorts of real-world observations, like J&J's effectiveness against the South African variant.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#684

Post by chaps » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #659

Barrin92 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

Okay, so then you die. Nihilism is your choice, so that's cool I guess. But your post is about you, and only you, fullstop. There are other people out there, despite whatever solipsistic beliefs you have.

With an R0 value of 6, you're statistically likely to infect 6 other people. Why is that acceptable to you?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#685

Post by _ph_ » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

ragingrobot wrote: post #6

Without getting into the whole vaccine thing... People need to start protesting with their wallets. People need to talk less and act more. I work in NYC, in an "essential" service. In the beginning myself and other workers were threatened with discipline if we did not show up for work. We were told to go straight home, and stay inside, and do as little as necessary otherwise. Now, this is easy for me, as I am single…

I am also voting with my wallet. Despite being vaccinated, I am watching the infection dynamcs closely when considering indoor activites, especially where I can't wear a mask.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#686

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

wdhilliard wrote: post #13

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people. We know this is slightly more true than among the unvaccinated, but only by about 40%. This is real data. Fears of privacy implications: Tracking data/metadata, How data is recorded, How long are records kept. What other data is linked to vaccination checks? Fears of…

> My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people.

No, its not; its based on transmission being reduced and infections less dangerous among the vaccinated, which mitigates (though does not fully eliminate) the dangers of being fully open, and the policy judgement that the burden of requiring the (freely available) vaccine for such activity is warranted by the public health benefit.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#687

Post by zarzavat » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:32 PM UTC

datameta wrote: post #612

bingohbangoh wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won’t there always be a variant popping up somewhere in some part of the world though? The idea that “if we all got vaccinated, we could have zero variants” reeks of “zero COVID” thinking

More unvaccinated people -> more people getting covid -> more chances for mutation into variants It's really that simple. We want as few active infections as possible globally so that existing vaccinations can work for the variants they were made in mind with. Otherwise we will be at the disadvantage in a perpetual arms race trying to quickly stamp out the global "fires" of new variants.

If you actually want that, then you need some kind of megaproject to build vaccine factories to supply the entire world and to distribute them to the whole world's population. This virus doesn't respect borders.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#688

Post by ok123456 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #672

ok123456 wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts This was 116 years ago.

The US Supreme Court is not the ultimate moral authority. You’re responding to a comment addressing the abstract long-term consequences of a policy with a specific legal determination saying the policy didn’t happen to violate US law.

At some point, society has to reach a decision so it can function. You can't just throw your hands up in the air waiting for some higher power with a clearer moral standing to show up and do something universally morally unambiguous.

We use the court system as a way of resolving conflicts where there are competing interests and arguments to be made. The Supreme Court had a similar situation happen 116 years ago, and they found that the public health interests outweighed the competing arguments.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#689

Post by orblivion » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:34 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #305

orblivion wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they're able to know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated they'll be more likely to visit. This is why I argue with some fellow libertarians on the idea of private company vaccine mandates. There's a place for it, such as this. Restaurants could differentiate this way. Different people have different needs. A government level mandate like this is insane.

Considering that vaccinated people can still carry the virus, and very few of those services are mandatory to survive, the minority can still stay safe at home, and the others can decide by themselves if they're willing to risk it.

Not sure if this is in opposition to your point, but if there can be businesses that cater to them by lowering their risk profile I think that's great.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#690

Post by zzzeek » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:35 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #129

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

your "poor and minority populations" argument strikes me as disingenuous bad faith; if there are poor and minority populations who dont want to be vaccinated, they will be safer by not going into crowded spaces as well.

but above all, some of us have children under 12. we'd like them to be safe. we have relatives who have weakened immune systems, who are in great danger even though they are fully vaccinated. These are the people who have literally no choice between a. hide in fear for years or b. expose themselves to great danger. vaccine mandates allow these people who otherwise have no choice to be more free in the world, by asking those people who totally have a choice to please make that choice by either not entering our public spaces, or getting vaccinated.