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91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#71

Post by gruez »

jolux wrote: post #65
gruez wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. At the risk of sounding like an industry shill: why is it being characterized as an cost externalization by the petrochemical/packaging industries, rather than the consumers? I agree that any pollution generated during extraction and manufacture can be attributed as an externaliz…

They lied about the recycling potential to encourage widespread adoption of plastics. I don’t think consumers are blameless, but you can’t get everyone in the world to change their purchasing behavior without regulation, which is necessary when lower prices are subsidized by huge externalities that have negative consequences for the world at large.

>huge externalities that have negative consequences for the world at large.

What are these negative consequences? The only ones I can think of are related to improper disposal (eg. littering), and would be present regardless of whether the material was recyclable or not. ie. if we replaced all the non-recyclable plastic bottles with 100% recyclable aluminum cans, the littering problem would still be there.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#72

Post by josho »

jariel wrote: post #69
jolux wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They lied about the recycling potential to encourage widespread adoption of plastics. I don’t think consumers are blameless, but you can’t get everyone in the world to change their purchasing behavior without regulation, which is necessary when lower prices are subsidized by huge externalities that have negative consequences for the world at large.

"They lied about the recycling potential to encourage widespread adoption of plastics." ? Plastics are an absolutely incredible technology, to the point of revolutionary. They are used absolutely everywhere, in everything. Nobody needed to be convinced of the utility of plastics, it's one of the most utilitarian things ever created.

So, they lied when they didn't even need to. Doesn't that make the lie that much worse?

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#73

Post by lotsofpulp »

wolco wrote: post #36
lotsofpulp wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems like the only way to make recycling truly effective at a large scale is to make it economically viable I think it's easier and less corruptible to have the goal be to reduce the consumption causing the waste and attack the problem at the root. I.e. a tax increasing the cost of everything to reflect the cost of properly disposing it. Recycling doesn't undo the environmental damage, and in many cases it takes…

Doesn't this hurt the poor while enabling the rich to continue being wasteful.

It solves the problem of excess consumption by humans as a whole. If this creates a new problem, such as allowing some humans consume disproportionately more than others, then that can be solved separately. The easiest and least corruptible solution that comes to mind there is wealth redistribution.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#74

Post by ZeroGravitas »

narwally wrote: post #14

This is for glass recycling not plastic, but I recently found out that my county ships all of their glass recyclables to be dumped in a landfill of a neighboring state. In my state, waste disposal companies are legally obligated to recycle everything they can that ends up in a recycling bin. But with glass it's actually vastly cheaper to produce new glass bottles than it is to make them out of recycled material. So t…

Here, specifically about glass, are some of the reasons the US fails at this, while Europe just does it.

https://cen.acs.org/materials/inorganic-chemistry/glass-recy...

Basically the lack of sensible policy.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#75

Post by WA »

tuatoru wrote: post #63
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

If the goals are to cut fossil fuel consumption and/or dispersal of waste into the natural environment, it ain't that simple. The best option by far is to not consume things. Don't buy stuff. That's working out really well for us, isn't it? Next best in many places is single use followed by incineration for district heating and electricity. Third, in many places, is single use with well managed collection and disposa…

You surely have a source for this right?

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#76

Post by lotsofpulp »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #48
lotsofpulp wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead if everyone recycles, then we begin the process of keeping the problem from growing even larger than it already is. Or you give people an excuse to consume more because now they can feel good about their consumption. Recycling does not solve any problems, as the revelations of the past decade have shown. Reducing consumption is the only solution, and recycling was the excuse sold to the public to keep the co…

> Recycling does not solve any problems, as the revelations of the past decade have shown. Fair. > Reducing consumption is the only solution Reducing waste is the important part, which may or may not involve reducing consumption. Better waste management is also an alternative solution.

I don't believe the technology in waste management can exist in a reasonable timeframe to be able to address the damage done by consumption. Namely, one of the biggest problems in waste management, carbon emissions from fossil fuels, simply has no solution other than reducing consumption of fossil fuels.

And consumption of everything increases consumption of fossil fuels since basically everything requires energy to move mass from one place to another.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#77

Post by josho »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #57
chubot wrote: post #42

I still don't get how bottled water became a thing. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid, and somehow the industry convinced us to buy huge quantities of an inferior product for more money, and it pollutes the environment to boot. Insane. The least you can do is use a refillable container. 10+ years ago Google switched from bottle water to giving everyone a container. And that was a great move. Yet people complained, a…

A thought exercise: Sugary bottled drinks are even worse for the environment. They not only have the same bottles and water involved but they also have other ingredients that add even more environmental consequences. They have public health consequences too. But of course to ban sugary drinks would cut into the realm of personal choice right? After all people may choose to want a sugary beverage. So no one argues tha…

> Go to the beach and forget your water bottle? You better like Coca-Cola because that's all they'll sell you!

Your comment reveals your age. The parent and myself are old enough to remember a time when you could go to numerous public places and drink from a water fountain.

It also showcases just how far we've fallen as a society and have settled to create profit seeking solutions at the expense of what is best for society.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#78

Post by lotsofpulp »

dahart wrote: post #46
lotsofpulp wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead if everyone recycles, then we begin the process of keeping the problem from growing even larger than it already is. Or you give people an excuse to consume more because now they can feel good about their consumption. Recycling does not solve any problems, as the revelations of the past decade have shown. Reducing consumption is the only solution, and recycling was the excuse sold to the public to keep the co…

Well, this is a good point, plastic recycling isn't working well at all, and this article demonstrates what you're saying. I would say that paper recycling has been working, it's plastic recycling that isn't currently working. I would also say that it's not that plastic recycling can't work, it's just that it hasn't been working. I am curious why it's not working. Would mandatory recycling help? Is it the recycling s…

>I am curious why it's not working

Problem number one is expecting people to put forth the time and effort into sorting all of their recyclables. The whole situation is so complicated and rules so difficult to enforce, I don't see how it can be considered a feasible solution.

The vastly easier, far more high impact solution is to reduce consumption.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#79

Post by pathseeker »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

>- Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies).

Direct bans for things so heavily used are going to have extreme unintended consequences. Are we willing to put that much immediate demand on things like tin and aluminum (cans, food cases, etc) that will drive up energy consumption and CO2 emissions? It's not clear that's a win for the environment.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#80

Post by jlmorton »

makecheck wrote: post #33
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

I’m not against these ideas but you do have to zoom out a bit to fully realize the impact of each alternative. It’s not as simple as replacing a “bad” one with a “good” one, because there are side effects. (I haven’t added up the total impacts of every option either; this is just something to consider.) For example, glass is much heavier than the plastic used for bottles. If you have trucks/etc. hauling millions of b…

> hauling millions of bottles around the world

If it's a 1:1 transition from plastic bottle to glass bottle, it would be 35 billion bottles annually, in the US alone.

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