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91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#61

Post by hristov »

As I have said before the solution is compostable plastic. It solves the problem with the smallest net change in behavior of the affected parties.

As we have regrettably seen with the coronavirus changing the behavior of large populations is incredibly difficult even if there are dire repercussions for failure to change.

The cost of compostable plastic is slightly higher than the usual plastic, so the governments will have to enforce its use, but it will be a small price to pay for removing the externalities of dealing with actual plastic waste.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#62

Post by mike00632 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #44
noxer wrote: post #28

PENN & TELLER: BULLSHIT S02EP05 Recycling https://www.bitchute.com/video/j0Hd6UfA4MKo/ Yes its old but not much has changed.

And here's their equally scientifically accurate take on climate change from the same time period. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fWt2Rir8OQk Big fan of both Penn and Teller but libertarian bullshit is still bullshit and they proved that even smart people fall for it if they hang in the wrong circles too much.

They've also done a 180 on veganism and animal activism.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#63

Post by tuatoru »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

If the goals are to cut fossil fuel consumption and/or dispersal of waste into the natural environment, it ain't that simple.

The best option by far is to not consume things. Don't buy stuff. That's working out really well for us, isn't it?

Next best in many places is single use followed by incineration for district heating and electricity.

Third, in many places, is single use with well managed collection and disposal to a well managed landfill.

When you dig into the numbers, things like reusable glass containers, cotton bags, and so on are harmful virtue signaling. Karens get to shame other people who harming the world less than the Karens are by a long way.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#64

Post by tayo42 »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #57
chubot wrote: post #42

I still don't get how bottled water became a thing. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid, and somehow the industry convinced us to buy huge quantities of an inferior product for more money, and it pollutes the environment to boot. Insane. The least you can do is use a refillable container. 10+ years ago Google switched from bottle water to giving everyone a container. And that was a great move. Yet people complained, a…

A thought exercise: Sugary bottled drinks are even worse for the environment. They not only have the same bottles and water involved but they also have other ingredients that add even more environmental consequences. They have public health consequences too. But of course to ban sugary drinks would cut into the realm of personal choice right? After all people may choose to want a sugary beverage. So no one argues tha…

The better ban would be to ban drinks sold in single use containers.

> ban sugary drinks would cut into the realm of personal choice right?

if you're talking about environmental effects then its no longer a personal choice issue.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#65

Post by jolux »

gruez wrote: post #60
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

> The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. At the risk of sounding like an industry shill: why is it being characterized as an cost externalization by the petrochemical/packaging industries, rather than the consumers? I agree that any pollution generated during extraction and manufacture can be attributed as an externaliz…

They lied about the recycling potential to encourage widespread adoption of plastics. I don’t think consumers are blameless, but you can’t get everyone in the world to change their purchasing behavior without regulation, which is necessary when lower prices are subsidized by huge externalities that have negative consequences for the world at large.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#66

Post by caturopath »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #57
chubot wrote: post #42

I still don't get how bottled water became a thing. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid, and somehow the industry convinced us to buy huge quantities of an inferior product for more money, and it pollutes the environment to boot. Insane. The least you can do is use a refillable container. 10+ years ago Google switched from bottle water to giving everyone a container. And that was a great move. Yet people complained, a…

A thought exercise: Sugary bottled drinks are even worse for the environment. They not only have the same bottles and water involved but they also have other ingredients that add even more environmental consequences. They have public health consequences too. But of course to ban sugary drinks would cut into the realm of personal choice right? After all people may choose to want a sugary beverage. So no one argues tha…

Soft drinks, booze, etc. are really harmful, but at least they have a value add that makes shipping them around coherent. Bottled water is a different matter.

Obviously we should be discouraging the use of soda and alcohol and such.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#68

Post by jariel »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

What happens if glass packaged goods are much more expensive to ship and prone to breakage thereby creating considerably CO2 exposure?

There are a zillion unforeseen externalizations in the mandates your listing - this is why centralization usually doesn't work very well.

Plastic is one of many materials that go in landfills, and we don't turn it into Co2 either so I'm not sure how we can go after that 'evil industry' and not others?

Probably a better solution would be to figure out how we can make use of that material afterwards - or - finding rational ways to dispose of it relatively cleanly.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#69

Post by jariel »

jolux wrote: post #65
gruez wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. At the risk of sounding like an industry shill: why is it being characterized as an cost externalization by the petrochemical/packaging industries, rather than the consumers? I agree that any pollution generated during extraction and manufacture can be attributed as an externaliz…

They lied about the recycling potential to encourage widespread adoption of plastics. I don’t think consumers are blameless, but you can’t get everyone in the world to change their purchasing behavior without regulation, which is necessary when lower prices are subsidized by huge externalities that have negative consequences for the world at large.

"They lied about the recycling potential to encourage widespread adoption of plastics."

?

Plastics are an absolutely incredible technology, to the point of revolutionary. They are used absolutely everywhere, in everything.

Nobody needed to be convinced of the utility of plastics, it's one of the most utilitarian things ever created.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#70

Post by josho »

gruez wrote: post #60
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

> The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. At the risk of sounding like an industry shill: why is it being characterized as an cost externalization by the petrochemical/packaging industries, rather than the consumers? I agree that any pollution generated during extraction and manufacture can be attributed as an externaliz…

The industry and their advocacy groups reduced their costs by switching to packaging, proceeded to lie to consumers and government that all this new packaging was going to be easily recycled and not to worry.

I don't see where consumers are on the hook? We were told that plastic was better (e.g. the switch from paper bags to plastic).

As a comparison to electronics industry in many jurisdictions there are recycling fees paid at the time of purchase. Those fees are paid to recyclers to tear down equipment into raw materials to be re-used. The electronics industry didn't mislead anyway suggesting recycling could pay for itself nor add recycling symbols to suggest you could drop a TV in your blue recycle bin.

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