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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#521

Post by medicineman »

zzz143 wrote: post #129
gspr wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a pretty broad statement, good luck with that attitude! Luckily, DeVault is an insanely prolific writer of actual code, so there's no need to evaluate his attitude. His code speaks for itself.

[flagged]

>I’m not sure comparing detractors of software to people who believe thousands of people died in a false flag operation is defensible commentary in any light nor that this community should be giving it an audience.

Instant turn off and automatically made me close the window. It is hard to imagine he has his position because all I see is someone on top of a mountain of salt. Good thing he didn't mention the USS Liberty.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#522

Post by toyg »

patrickaljord wrote: post #65
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> the main use cases of whoever was funding the project (mainly redhat)

But this is a real problem: it's not good that the Linux ecosystem has been reduced to "we shall eat whatever dogfood Redhat cooks for us". Wayland didn't even start as a RH project, iirc, and didn't really gain any traction for ages, but now it's a Big Deal because RH pushes it...?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#523

Post by zamadatix »

spion wrote: post #497

No, Wayland is not currently usable for the "vast majority" of people. Anyone that has a high DPI display and/or NVIDIA card and uses most of the popular Electron based apps or Chrome will have a bad experience. Not saying Xorg is any good, or the scaling decisions in Wayland are bad. Just that its not objectively possible to switch away from it yet, for a large number of people See e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/sway…

This was a sway thing more than a Wayland thing and a PR for it was made back in March https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/pull/2064 Edit: but not merged yet :/

Also it's (ironically) an X11 related issue which shows up do to XWayland backwards compatibility, not something new with Wayland.

Chrome also since supports Wayland natively so the workaround in that PR isn't even needed for it anymore. Electron is still a bit behind but it's looking like Electron 12 should have native Wayland support as well, until then the workaround for X11 app scaling is there.

There are still a few things I'd like to see land (which are closing in) before saying Wayland is a better fit for most users but better DPI scaling certainly isn't one, it was one of the first wins to land to be honest.

.

Regardless sway isn't for most users and will probably never be. I'd look more to issues in KDE or similar where it's more focused on the "normal" use case, supports Nvidia just fine, and is expected to work out of the box.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#524

Post by Spivak »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #468
Spivak wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Xorg mono-culture was bad. There was no ability to write other X11 display servers from the spec alone. You either did what Xorg did bug for bug or apps broke. By having many different implementations all speaking a common protocol you make it harder to calcify the behaviors of any one implementation and ensure that the spec is what apps code against. People seem to like that we have many browser implemen…

That's fine, I know. But acting like Wayland is feature complete when it obviously isn't is pretty ridiculous. Instead of solving hard problems the Wayland maintainers are acting like you're stupid to want to have the features solving the hard problems enables.

I think Wayland is about as feature complete as it's gonna get at this point. Mutter, Kwin are still working on adding features to support workflows that relied on the loosey-goosey nature of Xorg. Like Xorg never had "support" for global hotkeys or screen sharing. It's just that programs were allowed access to all inputs and the screen buffer. Designing a system where only some programs are allowed to do that isn't trivial.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#525

Post by mc10 »

toast0 wrote: post #472
arepublicadoceu wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't play World of Warcraft well under wine and you call this one of your two big things? The second being, screen sharing broken for you. Well, for me it works really well, maybe you didn't google hard enough? Now I suggest you to google extremely hard on how to make x11 handle displays with mixed DPI. A way more common usecase than running World of Warcraft though a compatibility layer AKA Wine. If you find a…

> Now I suggest you to google extremely hard on how to make x11 handle displays with mixed DPI. Look, if it's ok to say don't buy nvidia graphics cards and expect to use Wayland, why is it not ok to say don't buy mixed DPI and expect to use X11? Mixed DPI is a giant PITA, and high DPI is also a PITA, so just buy regular DPI monitors that are about similar. :P

> Look, if it's ok to say don't buy nvidia graphics cards and expect to use Wayland, why is it not ok to say don't buy mixed DPI and expect to use X11?

It’s still a hard sell when everything just works on Windows and macOS. It’s yet another reason why someone won’t pick up Linux when 90% of the features they want are present.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#526

Post by kuschku »

SEJeff wrote: post #516
kuschku wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

CUDA is primarily developed for Linux. You’re showing me that you totally misunderstand the problem by assuming Nvidia doesn’t build these GPUs for Linux. There is a reason that Nvidia gpus + Linux servers top the top 500 supercomputer list. It is because they’re built to work together:

Nvidia supports exactly one use case on Linux: running their GPUs in servers or workstations purely with their proprietary drivers purely for ML and CAD work.

Everything else is completely unsupported, and if you’ve got an issue with that, you’ve got to complain to Nvidia, not open source projects.

You expect a single unpaid volunteer maintaining a wayland compositor alone to somehow be able to add support for nvidias badly documented custom format?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#527

Post by kristjansson »

Wayland folks generally, and ddevault in particular, have built the software they wanted to build, with the tradeoffs they wanted to make. That's good! Users don't have a right to demand they make different software, with different tradeoffs, that they didn't want to make, and definitely don't have the right to invective when they don't get their way.

However, proponents probably also shouldn't push 'no yes it does work for you' replies though, particularly on the Nvidia thing, since that statement has to be followed by 'if you make serious performance and capability tradeoffs that you may not want to make.'

This software disclaims support for this and that thing [1] - that's fine, just add those to your constraint set and see if you still want to use that software at the end of the day. If you don't, that's fine, either write some code to lift your constraints or move on, but don't be a dick about it.

[1]: maybe because the guys that build that thing are jerks, and aren't being good citizens. Which, sure, fine, but from a user perspective, this peg doesn't go in that hole.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#528

Post by h_anna_h »

ddevault wrote: post #410
h_anna_h wrote: post #314

Since this is a new thread I will repost my question from the old one. Honest question by someone who wants to try out wayland, do steam, gog games, and wine games work on wayland well? What about things like obs?

Games: yes, albiet mostly through Xwayland, which is a compatibility layer. Most games Just Work through this compatibility layer. OBS works fine, but you need a plugin. Caveat: this applies only to compositors based on wlroots, list of them here: https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/wiki/Projects-which-use-wl... The most mature compositors from this list are sway, wayfire, hikari, and cage. YMMV with other Wayland comp…

Thanks for the reply. You would think that these that have the opinion that games do not work on wayland would at least provide their own response than just downvote you.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#529

Post by btinker »

phkahler wrote: post #344
foldr wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I understand how amazing it is that this software is truly free and created by volunteers, no, I don't understand how that gives you dictatorial power over 100s of users who don't like the changes you've made. To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you.

>> To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you. People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. Yes, peop…

> People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything.

Pretty sure they are aware of this, even Gnome. Gnome's Dev Team is often citing user studies etc. and I believe they are genuine in trying to produce software for the public, rather then themselves.

...Though I believe they don't grog how disruptive changes (any change) can be.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#530

Post by rkangel »

jjoonathan wrote: post #391
cafard wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah. I greatly prefer the Windows start menu that went away with Windows 8, and had previously configured this Windows 10 machine to use it. Then yesterday I installed patches, and it's back to the Windows 10.

Windows patch auto-revert-settings is cancer. It breaks my bluetooth every time and my setup is very typical so it probably does it to millions of others. Details: Bluetooth headphones with microphones actually show up as 3 sound devices, one high quality output device and a pair of low quality input and output devices. Whenever a microphone is requested, the low quality pair is selected. Output quality goes to shit…

> Since many apps request microphone access for non-obvious reasons

Interesting. I have what appears to be exactly the same bluetooth headset setup (Bose QuietComfort 35s), and use it all day every day while at work.

I have the slightly annoying thing that if I'm in a video conference all normal audio isn't heard (unless I switch the default audio output), but I only get that when actively in a VC. I have never had 'random applications requesting the microphone'.

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