I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#341

Post by pwdisswordfish6 » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

throwaways885 wrote: post #263

formerly_proven wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. Like you note, this isn't a problem unique to Linux/"free Unixy OSes". In some ways Linux is actually worse than others…

I think a big issue is there's no discipline in the Linux community. The Kernel team has done an amazing job of preserving ABI compatibility through every last byte, but then you look at projects like glib or GNOME which seem to pride themselves on huge, sweeping, changes and don't care if downstream consumers are hurt by the changes. Edit: glib not glibc

> there's no discipline in the Linux community [...] look at projects like glibc or GNOME

So not the Linux community then. Outside it.

Do all the new GitHub-driven programmers who exclusively use MacBooks and constantly rev things with the same frequency not exist? Why is this still being presented as a freedesktop-related problem and not a general problem with creators' fickle and fleeting attention, when we have evidence that the category isn't as narrow as the pigeonhole you're trying to put things in?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#342

Post by dancek » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

Miraste wrote: post #241

lewispollard wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

In my experience Gnome is the worst major FOSS project for this. Ever since Gnome 3 the design philosophy of all of their projects seems to be "find out what the users want and do the opposite."

I've heard this from a couple of power users before. But maybe GNOME does not optimize for power users?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#343

Post by brnt » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

Change causes stress, it's a scientific fact. It is thus not surprising that many don't like change for any reason, nor is it a reason not to change if the reasons are sound.

While we can all agree X is a pile of something, I am in the camp that remains unconvinced by Wayland. It does not work on my hardware, it does not solve problems I have. OK, no more screen tearing, which is nice.

Wayland have to understand that if they want to replace X, they'll have to replace X.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#344

Post by phkahler » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #170

lewispollard wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

> Yes, I understand how amazing it is that this software is truly free and created by volunteers, no, I don't understand how that gives you dictatorial power over 100s of users who don't like the changes you've made. To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you.

>> To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you.

People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything.

Yes, people who do the work have the most say, but sometimes they really use that to do stupid things with the code. I don't know how to correct that though. Commercial software is no better about this.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#345

Post by dkarl » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

__s wrote: post #200

adkadskhj wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. No…

It'll work with Nouveau. Nvidia refuses to implement an interface in their driver every other graphics driver implements Drew wrote a blog entirely devoted to the Nvidia issue: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

> Nvidia users are shitty consumers and I don’t even want them in my userbase.

Can't say he isn't straightforward. If you bought your computer without thinking about running Linux on it, or if you're looking to install Linux on an employer-supplied Windows laptop, there's an excellent chance you're a shitty consumer that he doesn't want using his software.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#346

Post by folkrav » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #235

Veen wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an amateur developer, I've often found that "Why would you want to do that?" is followed by an explanation of a much better way that I hadn't even thought of. Sometimes it's asshole-behaviour, but it's often people sharing the benefit of their experience; my thinking has gone awry at some point several steps back and they want to make life easier for me.

> As an amateur developer, I've often found that "Why would you want to do that?" is followed by an explanation of a much better way that I hadn't even thought of. Unfortunately in my experience it is often followed by an explanation of why what I'm trying to do isn't what I should want to do, as though I am not aware of my own goals and constraints.

You'd probably get the same question from a plumber if you asked him how to plug a pipe in a non-intuitive way. He has no way to know your pipes are laid out in a strange way, and the only spot you have left to add said junction without redoing your plumbing is back there - unless you tell him.

Sure, some people are assholes, but that's just people. Nobody's in your mind, they can't guess your requirements, thought process and level of experience. In my experience, more often than not, asking the question "why would you want to do that?" gets you a bad reason. "I did X this way because Y. I need Z." would filter the legitimate questioning out. From there, the others are just assholes, and those are everywhere.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#347

Post by zests » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

DCKing wrote: post #163

londons_explore wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

When I'm at my framebuffer terminal, I can either type 'startx' or 'sway'. If I go from typing 'startx' to typing 'sway' does that count as "switching to Wayland"?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#348

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

I feel your pain.

In my case, ranting didn't help. In fact, it made things much worse.

Also, in my case, I was lucky enough to hand my project over to some really sharp, energetic and positive people that have taken my work to the next level.

Turns out, the absolute best thing that I could do for my project, was to step away from it completely (not even being a "benevolent dictator emeritus"), after ten years of dealing with some really annoying crap. My being associated with the project was actually a boat anchor. I hate to say it, but not everybody loves me, and I'm fairly good at giving as well as I get (see "didn't help," above).

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#349

Post by kevincox » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

varbhat wrote: post #228

kevincox wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, didn't it make that security claim irrelevant because each window can access the screen? No, because these APIs allow the user to audit the requests and allow or deny. You could have a default-allow policy and get back to the X security but most implementations ask you to confirm first.

Ok. Thanks for the Information. But,last time i tried Wayland (sway to be specific) , it didn't ask me to allow/deny ,ie, no audit was present.

It is up to your compositor. Some just allow everything (like X)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#350

Post by Out_of_Characte » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

"rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card." Yes this part is true. "my option is to use an "evil" but very stable driver and no wayland to do my job and get paid, or not." So what is the problem? That you can't have nice things for free?