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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

161–170 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#161
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that it does - the author has, as far as I can tell, three small commits in Wayland: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/commits/mas...

He also maintains wlroots, which is the base for basically every non-gnome(and KDE?) Wayland compositor/WM.

He also wrote "the book" on the subject: https://wayland-book.com/

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#162
post #98

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

How does this work? https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/pull/2484 Is it just basically a backdoor going through the hardware? Is there some way that a compositor works with Linux security so that you need a special privilege or root or something in order to record the screen?

Using EGLFS instead of libDRM are two diffrent ways wayland compositors work, this argument doesn't work against sway because it only supports libDRM.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#163

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland".

What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's called Mutter). Similarly, KDE's implementation is in KWin itself. The source article is from an author of yet another window manager (Sway) implementing Wayland.

What you're observing is not "Wayland not being there yet", it's Gnome not being there yet. All of these deficiencies have nothing to do with Wayland itself: they're general QA issues that plague an underfunded Linux desktop that's making a slow technology transition.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because all three are similar, all three throw away some of the modular unix philosophy and replace it with a system that gives less power to the user.

Sorry which modular unix philosophy is Wayland replacing? X wasn't modular except by the most generous definitions. X is a weird server that does way too many things and the window manager where the interesting logic was. These days the building blocks have been broken out allowing much more flexibility. If you think that the window manager was modular component you can basically pretend that wlroots is X and the com…

Being able to write bash scripts to automate mouse and keyboard is modular

Being able to dump screenshots or process them in any other way, also again with bash scripts, is very modular

Being able to debug parameters of X windows, etc...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#165
post #159
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you care so much about what someone else decides to spend their time coding on? Man, people criticize the weirdest things sometimes. I for one greatly appreciate a lot of DeVault's work. Do I think he has the softest way of expressing his opinions? No. Do I need him to in order to appreciate the technical merits of his work? No. I'm not looking for a life partner – I'm looking for excellent software.

I didn’t say I cared. I said it was an undercapitalized endeavor partially due to infighting like this, and that sticking to it speaks for itself in terms of the goals and philosophy of a developer. I might have meant kudos for believing in something the world doesn’t and left it unspoken, for all you know, but your reaction to criticism of Drew DeVault tells me we are not discussing this on equal footing.

You sure seem to spend time and energy on something you don't care about.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

Did you report any of these?

They all come up with plenty of Google results when you search for them, so I assume the devs are well aware but have other things on their plate to work on.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#167
post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

Now why does wayland break screenshot and keyboard tools? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or containerized applications is useless. OK, so what's the solution here? Give up on screen-shotting tools forever? Or is there a plan to fix this somehow?

There’s an API for that. e.g. KDE Spectacle uses it, which is why it can be used as screenshot tool under wayland no matter your DE.

But by making it an explicit API, you can also apply an include/exclude list to the programs allowed to call this API, and e.g. exclude sandboxed applications from taking screenshots. Or e.g. add a permissions prompt (as on android or iOS) for an application to request to be on that include list.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). I mostly agree, although I prefer OpenRC personally. I was bit by [* ] Stopping service 1:30 remaining too many times to really like SystemD, although I tolerate it on my daily driver these days.

You can fix the problematic service with: systemctl edit service-name [Service] TimeoutStopSec=XX You can also override the global default DefaultTimeoutStopSec in /etc/systemd/system.conf.

See, this right here is the (technical, not social) problem with systemd. Whether anyone points out that systemd is doing something stupid and wrong, the systemd shills' answer is always "well duh what did you expect when you didn't modify one of the hundred default configuration files to have `[stupidshit] = false`! You brought this on yourself!" And you're lucky if that even works to solve the problem.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#170

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

> Yes, I understand how amazing it is that this software is truly free and created by volunteers, no, I don't understand how that gives you dictatorial power over 100s of users who don't like the changes you've made.

To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you.

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