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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#121

Post by kevincox »

Aardwolf wrote: post #56
darkwater wrote: post #11

Wayland is being treated like PulseAudio and systemd before. So, it will probably win its battle, thanks $DEITY.

That's because all three are similar, all three throw away some of the modular unix philosophy and replace it with a system that gives less power to the user.

Sorry which modular unix philosophy is Wayland replacing? X wasn't modular except by the most generous definitions. X is a weird server that does way too many things and the window manager where the interesting logic was. These days the building blocks have been broken out allowing much more flexibility.

If you think that the window manager was modular component you can basically pretend that wlroots is X and the compositor is the window manager. It is just as modular with that logic except more efficient and capable.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#122

Post by alyandon »

Shared404 wrote: post #61
ragnese wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). PulseAudio did have some growing pains, though. I don't remember them exactly, but I remember having to tinker way too much to get apps to work together/correctly between ALSA and PulseAudio, etc. I still have a finicky laptop that REFUSES to do audio over HDMI unless I boot the machine with the HDMI cable plugged in already. No real…

> I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). I mostly agree, although I prefer OpenRC personally. I was bit by [* ] Stopping service 1:30 remaining too many times to really like SystemD, although I tolerate it on my daily driver these days.

You can fix the problematic service with:

  systemctl edit service-name

  [Service]
  TimeoutStopSec=XX
You can also override the global default DefaultTimeoutStopSec in /etc/systemd/system.conf.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#123

Post by Quekid5 »

Shared404 wrote: post #40
geofft wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that it does - the author has, as far as I can tell, three small commits in Wayland: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/commits/mas...

He also maintains wlroots, which is the base for basically every non-gnome(and KDE?) Wayland compositor/WM.

I'm 99% certain that KDE has it's own full compositor implementation for Wayland.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#124

Post by tbr1 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #73
kuschku wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland improves: - Multi-Monitor support (especially with multiple different resolutions) - HiDPI support (even if some of your programs haven’t been updated for that yet) Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or…

So what's the remote login or rendering solution for Wayland? I don't really care about security or efficiency or whatever, I just want something that works.

"Wayland forwarding": https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe

VNC: https://github.com/any1/wayvnc

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#125

Post by johnisgood »

mkl95 wrote: post #22

I don't hate Wayland. But every time I use it random things stop working, so I'm sticking with x11 for the time being. I'm a firm believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I have been attacked for daring to say that software can be finished. Maybe it is my fault for not having said explicitly that it does not mean that they do not get 1) security patches, 2) compatibility patches, 3) bug fixes. That said, I have been attacked for using X11, too, which pretty much works for me and has worked without an issue under Arch Linux for years. It just works, and Wayland would not because my window manager does not support it. I do not blame Wayland for it, of course, but I think many software that I use have no Wayland support.

I have been attacked for using irssi, too, instead of weechat. They still hold the view that it is not maintained despite showing them the commit history. Crazy. Make no mistake, I am not complaining, it is the Internet after all.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#126

Post by PaulHoule »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

The fact that has gone on more than seven years and Wayland is not mainstream is exactly what the problem is.

It seems impossible that it will be ready for use before it is hopelessly obsolete (e.g. Windows and MacOS will be beaming images straight into your brain or something.)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#127

Post by davidcollantes »

freeone3000 wrote: post #108
davidcollantes wrote: post #99

I agree with mostly everything Drew wrote, yet these two things are antagonistic to the main sentiment of the post, in my opinion (English isn’t my mother tongue, and I might have gotten things wrong): > […] just to maintain that broken pile of shit. > […] If you do know what you’re doing, though, you’ll soon realize you want nothing to do with that shitty codebase. If it is a "broken pile of shit," and a "shitty cod…

He's referring to X11 with that.

Oooooh! It makes sense now. Thank you, I completely missed the context.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#128

Post by Aardwolf »

hacknat wrote: post #114
Aardwolf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because all three are similar, all three throw away some of the modular unix philosophy and replace it with a system that gives less power to the user.

I agree that all three are aggressively Linux specific, but let's be real. From a market share perspective Unix is dead. Linux itself threw the Unix philosophy out the window some time ago.

It's what I like and use it for though, so please allow me to dislike those systems. If I wanted to use an OS that decides things for me, there are enough other choices.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#129

Post by zzz143 »

gspr wrote: post #81
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #12

> So my new approach is “fuck you”. None of the Wayland detractors have a clue. Mmmmkay. That's a pretty broad statement, good luck with that attitude! > I’ve tried appealing to reason and rationally debunking each lie that some Wayland detractor flavor-of-the-week is touting to tow the party line, but it didn’t work. I guess he's referring to this post? https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-de...

> That's a pretty broad statement, good luck with that attitude! Luckily, DeVault is an insanely prolific writer of actual code, so there's no need to evaluate his attitude. His code speaks for itself.

[flagged]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#130

Post by mondoshawan »

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106
creata wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

On my ASUS PN50 APU, Steam works fine in wayland, even in big picture mode. Input, however, is another (sad) story.
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