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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#191

Post by SEJeff »

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card.

Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things:

https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use an "evil" but very stable driver and no wayland to do my job and get paid, or not.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#192

Post by robert_foss »

adkadskhj wrote: post #176
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. No…

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does.

Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#193

Post by mondoshawan »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #84
Aardwolf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because all three are similar, all three throw away some of the modular unix philosophy and replace it with a system that gives less power to the user.

I may be mistaken, but PulseAudio doesn't seem to fit that definition at all. Pulse allows for a lot more functionality and modularity than ALSA, the problem people had with it was that it was just really really buggy when it was pushed as the default in a lot of distros.

Your use of "was" here is sadly, incorrect. PA is still horrifically broken on simple PC desktop systems I use (with integrated AC97 audio, btw) and on custom embedded systems I have integrated new sound chips into.

I regularly have to open pavucontrol to fix basic things like "where output audio streams are routed to", fight with audio frequency rates, etc. On new embedded designs, PA is often the bane of my existance because of the insane heuristics it runs to figure out audio policies and mixer/routing behaviors. Even the major desktop environments have trouble trying to integrate with the blasted thing.

PA is still hot garbage, straight from upstream source.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#194

Post by kevincox »

varbhat wrote: post #94

I am neither fond of Xorg nor Wayland. I have used both and I see shortcomings of both. Xorg is Overly Bloated/Done without giving much importance to security. On the other hand, Wayland is technically superior , might be more secure than Xorg. But, it's feature parity doesn't match with that of Xorg. Now,i don't think those features must be pushed into Wayland itself. i don't know but something desktop oriented Wayl…

> So, didn't it make that security claim irrelevant because each window can access the screen?

No, because these APIs allow the user to audit the requests and allow or deny. You could have a default-allow policy and get back to the X security but most implementations ask you to confirm first.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#195

Post by bionade24 »

noobermin wrote: post #111

Dear god, Drew has spicy takes but this takes the cake, comparing anti-wayland sentiment to 9/11-truthers is quite the comparison. Not sure I can stomach reading past the first sentence.

I only developed on smaller FOSS projects but can tell you this blogpost ist just an abyssnormally small piece of the hate you'll get for changing things.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#197

Post by pjc50 »

lewispollard wrote: post #151
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

> I don't understand how that gives you dictatorial power over 100s of users who don't like the changes you've made.

The option always remains to change it yourself or stop using it. It's not as if it's bound to the hardware (Apple) or shipped with the machine (Windows). It's not a SaaS that may vapourise or change underneath you.

There's no way to force consensus in situations like this. The best you can do is force out those maintainers you don't like with a harassment campaign.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#198

Post by nescioquid »

patrickaljord wrote: post #65
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI

This seems to point to the general situation of change fatigue. If you pick up a random Android device, what does the "settings" app icon look like? Individually, these things are small, but the small impedances these changes introduce does take a toll on people, especially when you're trying to just get stuff done.

I don't think there's an easy answer here when the developer needs to make fundamental changes, though.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#199

Post by pmlnr »

patrickaljord wrote: post #65
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case.

Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#200

Post by __s »

adkadskhj wrote: post #176
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. No…

It'll work with Nouveau. Nvidia refuses to implement an interface in their driver every other graphics driver implements

Drew wrote a blog entirely devoted to the Nvidia issue: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

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