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Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

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Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#471

Post by gentleman11 »

cletus wrote: post #460
an_opabinia wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

Of course this is the case. Business give better customers better treatment. Where people haven’t seemed to have learned their lesson with this is with airlines and to a lesser extent hotels. People will just buy the cheapest ticket, which is completely fine if that’s what you want or need to do, but they then complain that the airlines don’t bend over backwards when things go awry. Example: you have to check in to i…

In this context, people are basically saying it’s okay steal $7000 from a customer they don’t like, and upvoting each other for the sentiment. The only reason it’s not criminal is because it’s a powerful party doing it to a weak party. Imagine if a homeless man took $7k of amazons money - the police would be involved instantly and there would be jail time

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#472

Post by Ekaros »

Dayshine wrote: post #449
Ekaros wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why companies should not have right to cancel their relationship with person for non-discriminatory reasons? And constant complaints and errors on aggregate sounds entirely reasonable reason. If same thing kept happening inside non-online business I think we would find it pretty okay...

So, say you live in a rural area but have one local supermarket (5-10 mins away), and the next supermarket is 30-45 minutes away. You keep finding the food you're buying is mouldy so you complain/return it. They ban you. So, now you need to spend significantly more money and time on petrol and driving in order to do you weekly shop. That's OK?

If you keep buying mouldy food maybe there is need to change your habits... Or stop buying from that store in first place.

On other side, let's say customer violently attacks other customers or staff. Or causes substantial property damage intentionally, maybe attempts arson. Would you still disagree with them banning such customer?

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#473

Post by chongli »

asimpletune wrote: post #458
franga2000 wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you, but where I'm from, consumer protection laws exist specifically so consumers don't have to sue in these cases. Providing a fair refund process is their legal duty, not a courtesy.

To me about how these infractions can be enforced without suing though?

The point is that it shouldn’t be the aggrieved consumer filing the lawsuit, it should be the powerful regulator with potential fines tied to a percentage of company revenue.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#474

Post by jk7tarYZAQNpTQa »

ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

Amazon is great for stuff that is neither valuable, critical, subject to counterfeit, or perishable. But if health or a large amount of money is at stake, avoid it like the plague. It's not worth the risk.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#475

Post by TacticalCoder »

tlogan wrote: post #415
an_opabinia wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

This is 100% correct. Even our small business have rules like this: good customers will get refunds, discounts, etc. Bad ones (pathological ones) - we just try to get rid of them ASAP and no refunds. Because we do not want them to use our service anyway. At the very beginning we were thinking that good vs bad should also include our support costs - not just LTV. But that is amazingly correlated: high LTV means that u…

> Bad ones (pathological ones) - we just try to get rid of them ASAP and no refunds.

A customer "not buying much" is not "bad". If you accept his money for cheap stuff, he is your customer. There's a difference between an honest customer who usually doesn't buy much and then buys something expensive and is getting sadly scammed and a customer trying to rob you.

If you accept the customer for cheap stuff but refuse to help him when he gets scammed on an expensive item, you are the bad, pathological, person/business.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#476

Post by brandonmenc »

ptero wrote: post #311
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

For expensive stuff I almost never go with Amazon now: too many counterfeit / fly by night sellers. For "prosumer" items a store that serves professionals is likely to watch their suppliers very carefully and have customer-friendly policies when things hit a snag. For cameras and optics (and flash sticks) B&H is my go-to place. My 2c.

> B&H is my go-to place

I will also throw in a vote for B&H.

A customer service rep from NYC once called to personally answer some questions I had about a sub-$100 product. This happens often.

This week I ordered a display with free shipping that was scheduled to arrive 5 days later. I received it in 24 hours - 4 days earlier than expected.

Their return policy is also hassle-free.

For music or audio products, I buy from Sweetwater.

Same good points as B&H, but you have an assigned "sales engineer" which some people find annoying, but I really like - whenever I have a problem or question, I get the same person on the phone every time.

I don't order from Amazon if I'm not comfortable outright losing my money, getting it late, or receiving a counterfeit.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#477

Post by Syzygies »

ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I buy expensive electronics from B&H Photo Video, when possible.

In the 1980's, B&H was the queen of the "grey market". Now, I trust them to deliver authentic goods with legitimate warranties, and I'm profoundly suspicious of unnecessary transactions with Amazon.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#478

Post by miracle2k »

chongli wrote: post #473
asimpletune wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me about how these infractions can be enforced without suing though?

The point is that it shouldn’t be the aggrieved consumer filing the lawsuit, it should be the powerful regulator with potential fines tied to a percentage of company revenue.

I don't see regulation being the issue here.

The law will oblige either of the two sides to carry the burden of proof. Either Amazon has to proof the package was delivered, or the customer has to proof it wasn't. If the other sides does not accept the proof received, it has to sue.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#479

Post by cm2187 »

ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I apply the same policy myself after a similar incident. I ordered a bunch of hard drives, when delivering them to my porter, the (dedicated) amazon delivery guy got an error on his tracking machine and took the parcel back. But then it was marked as delivered, and amazon refused to bulge, despite me receiving multiple emails the days after that delivery attempt, notifying me that the parcel would be delivered the next day (which I interpret as someone scanning the parcel they claimed has been delivered at their warehouse). A few weeks later they finally agreed to reimburse me.

Between this experience and my lack of trust in their supply chain, I now never buy anything expensive on amazon.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#480

Post by cm2187 »

an_opabinia wrote: post #378
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

I don’t think that’s the case. I spent tens of thousands of dollars on amazon over the years and had a similar bad experience than the author. I doubt they treat customers differently depending on how much they spend on the site.
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