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Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

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Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#451

Post by jrochkind1 »

an_opabinia wrote: post #378
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

It's a lot better for those with the highest LTV's (ie, the richest), that's for sure!

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#452

Post by judge2020 »

dcolkitt wrote: post #423
judge2020 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracts require consideration - as long as they didn’t charge you they don’t have to fulfill their end of the contract.

This isn't true. Any promise is sufficient for consideration. Cash doesn't actually have to change hands for a contract to be in effect. If this wasn't the case then every single financial futures contract or swap would be null and void. These contracts incur no cash flow on day one. They're merely a promise by one part to pay another based on some event in the future. If your legal theory was true, then one party co…

then you would only be able to sue over damages, and with a roof maybe your only damages are the time spent planning and getting the permits to get the roof done, but if TSLA hadn’t even started ripping off the roof then I don’t see what damages you could claim against them (TSLA’s legal team surely weighed the possibility of a class action lawsuit).

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#453

Post by mancerayder »

an_opabinia wrote: post #378
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

I believe all of this, but isn't there some aspect where persistence has a different outcome than passivity? In your example where essentially you're saying the profit Amazon made off a customer is less than the refund cost and fallout of indifference. There are escalation paths that cost the company money, like stealing support time via repeatedly escalating, and eventually filing a dispute with the credit card issuer. These, too, cost Amazon money.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#454

Post by kube-system »

thedufer wrote: post #389
kube-system wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scales used for commercial purposes in the US are required to meet accuracy standards and to be calibrated by law. While it’s not impossible for them to break, they’re a heck of a lot more rigorous in design and regulation than Amazon’s notoriously problematic inventory management.

Your comparison to Amazon's inventory implies that this is a weights vs Amazon issue, but what I'm trying to point out is that there are three sides, and none of them agree. If the weights are accurate, that means that the customer lied about getting an empty box (a 2-pound empty box? c'mon) despite actually not getting what they ordered , which is just really weird and hard to explain.

> (a 2-pound empty box? c'mon)

Yes, 2 lbs of packaging. It’s a $7000 camera. It’s well packaged. Even my $300 Canon was double boxed. (As are the customer’s photos of the packaging in the article)

The spec sheet of the a1 lists it as weighing 1.6 lbs. it lists the boxed weight as 3.22 lbs. This means the Sony packaging is 1.62 lbs.

The remaining 0.38 lbs is the packaging that Amazon put the Sony box in.

The math checks out.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#455

Post by judge2020 »

CPLX wrote: post #422
judge2020 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracts require consideration - as long as they didn’t charge you they don’t have to fulfill their end of the contract.

That’s wildly incorrect. A failure of a contract for lack of consideration would be if there’s no exchange of value contemplated, ever. For example if I made a promise to provide you a valuable service for nothing in return. In this situation both sides agreed to exchange something of value so there’s obviously consideration. They could make an argument that no damages have occurred and claim you have no credible all…

I realize I phrased that incorrectly, I meant that a contract is only worth something if you can sue over it, and with $0 in damages (maybe not given the homeowner might be able to be comp’d for time or for money spent getting the permits) it wouldn’t make sense to sue Tesla over it.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#456

Post by cmckn »

distances wrote: post #319
cmckn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The open box thing is a huge issue. I bought probably 5 things last year >$100 sold as “new” that just weren’t. Returns have always been easy, I live near an Amazon Go and they even have an attendant that helps. But not being able to trust that a new item is actually new is…shitty. I would never buy electronics from Amazon, just get it for the same price at Best Buy and wait a couple more days (plus they often have s…

Is open box always a return for you then? I got a coffee scale with obvious usage stains on it from Amazon, but honestly it works fine and a quick cleanup was much easier than a return.

I’ve just kept a couple things, yeah; but usually I could have gotten a better deal if I purposely bought used or “renewed”, so the return is more about the price than the principle. For some things, I’d return anyway because the practice feels scammy and user-hostile.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#457

Post by Strom »

garmaine wrote: post #169
Reason077 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Amazon has no concept of "open box" vs "new,"" Yes they do. There is a large section of the website ("Amazon Warehouse deals") devoted to open-box items. I've used this a few times and got great prices on perfect items, just with opened or damaged packaging.

Yet somehow returns end up back in the warehouse where they are picked as "new" sales to other customers.

This is true. I've had Amazon send me clearly used and damaged items although I ordered new. They also always block my negative review pointing this out, claiming that reviews are about the product and not about my experience of ordering it from Amazon.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#458

Post by asimpletune »

franga2000 wrote: post #436
bradleyjg wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day your remedy is to sue someone. Everything else is a courtesy shortcut.

I don't know about you, but where I'm from, consumer protection laws exist specifically so consumers don't have to sue in these cases. Providing a fair refund process is their legal duty, not a courtesy.

To me about how these infractions can be enforced without suing though?

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#459

Post by mannykannot »

an_opabinia wrote: post #378
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

You have a point, but if the company has a stated refund policy and its actual policy differs from that, then it can not in any way be regarded as just, IHMO.

(I have never bought anything expensive from Amazon, and so I have no idea what its stated policy is.)

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#460

Post by cletus »

an_opabinia wrote: post #378
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

Of course this is the case. Business give better customers better treatment.

Where people haven’t seemed to have learned their lesson with this is with airlines and to a lesser extent hotels. People will just buy the cheapest ticket, which is completely fine if that’s what you want or need to do, but they then complain that the airlines don’t bend over backwards when things go awry.

Example: you have to check in to international flights 60 minutes or more before the flight leaves (from the US). This is a reasonably strict rule. I once arrived 45 minutes prior and they checked me in anyway. I give that airline a lot of business and they know it.

So I order a lot of packages from Amazon and have had zero problems with returns and cancellations but almost all my purchases are low end.

For, say, new electronics, I’ll just go straight to B&H or Adorama. Or even Best Buy.

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