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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

431–440 of 510 posts

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> long after it's become obvious that the person in question is simply abusive and taking advantage. Do you consciously notice this change in your own perspective? In real time? I only do this in retrospect. I can look back and see the thing that should have been obvious, but wasn't at the time. All the red flags. I have found my ability to detect them has accelerated and my tolerance for them has declined. We are su…

I'm older than I used to be. I've gotten better at figuring it out "in real time" and that's been enormously helpful. Life is better than it used to be. I feel like my gender still contributes to some people wanting to play the sympathy card and justify their crap. I think they actually know better and they know it's BS but they think I will fall for it anyway for whatever reason. It gets tiresome to deal with people…

I'm not sure it's that you're a woman or that you're empathetic, good natured, choose to avoid conflict, in addition to being technically skilled. There does seem to be a correlation between the two, but in my experience, what you're discussing here isn't unique to women. I see it happen to a lot of men as well, including myself.

They are manipulators. Their skill isn't in getting their job done, it's in manipulating other people into doing it for them.

I think for me, it's about boundaries. If someone continually pushes or crosses my boundaries, then that's the biggest red flag. If I push back and they push harder, then something is going wrong.

You giving of yourself should be an act of freewill in pursuit of something greater for all, not to avoid the negative repercussions of saying no.

When I find myself saying yes to avoid being lashed out at, threatened, extorted, coerced, insulted, etc, then it's time to go.

I'll tolerate it once or twice or even more times than that. I excuse bad behavior from others away with "I'm too sensitive" or "I know what they say isn't true" or "they don't understand what they just did."

But after too much of it, it doesn't matter. At some point, the math tips to it being worse to be around them than not, so I won't be around them anymore. In fact, I suppose, it adds up somehow, I don't know the formula.

Like... if someone does something, I let it slide, but if they do it again, then it's not just 1 + 1 = 2, it's more like 1 + 1.25 = 2.25. When it gets to 10, I'm done.

A memory multiplier, if you will.

"You've done this twice now. I laughed it off the first time, but I'm noticing a trend and I don't appreciate it."

Then the third time, it's 1 + 1.25 + 2.50 = 4.75.

Why?

1 for the first strike. 1 + 0.25 for the second strike, because it includes the memory of the first one. 2.50 for the third strike, because 2 memories, plus violating a direct ask to avoid repeating the bad behavior.

Something like that.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#432
post #404
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the examples were about police targeting black people disproportionately compared to other races concluding that is because of systemic racism. Is there a law that compels police officers to behave in such a way? The answer is none. Therefore it can't be systemic. The targeting comes from individual decisions by individual officers. Whether this is from prejudice or bad experience or plain racism is unknown.…

What if a certain group of laws (say drug laws) was created specifically so police could target certain minorities? There isn't any particular motivation in the law to arrest more black people for marijuana use, but despite similar usage by race (2-4% difference https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2017/08/11/char... ) arrests for Blacks happen at 3-6 times Whites. There's lots to suggest the war on drugs is…

>What if a certain group of laws (say drug laws) was created specifically so police could target certain minorities?

Could you point to such a law or even better cite a paragraph from such a law where you feel it targets certain minorities? How do police officers from minority background do their job?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#433
post #231

WTF is this shit? Blame the victim hood ? If you’re living in an unjust world, the solution might not actually come from within; perhaps we could modify it somehow? Don’t bet the farm on findings from psychology.

I think you misunderstand what people the article is referring to. Victims are largely irrelevant, this is about people who (like to/have a tendency to) feel or see themselves as victims.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#434
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? This makes no sense to me.

There is a difference between rules and laws being racist (systemic racism) and people being racist (boring old normal racism).

This reminds me of the debate between micro evolution and macro evolution. Nobody is confused that often these disparate outcomes are the cumulative effect of the decisions of many biased decisions by people inside the systems. It's still systemic racism because the outcome of all those peoples behavior is a system that discriminates. No racist intention needs to be spelled out in any rule or law for systemic racism to exist.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#435
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling someone they are a victim and there is nothing they can possibly do to better their situation is not a helpful or productive action. You end up with entire generations who believe there is no point trying because its all pointless since they are a victim to something that happened generations ago.

> Telling someone they are a victim and there is nothing they can possibly do to better their situation is not a helpful or productive action. Who is telling people that they are victims? Who thinks that being a victim means that it's 100% outside of that person's control? These are the straw-men that so many dumb comments here are based on. There are real victims in the world and most of the time they're just trying…

> Who is telling people that they are victims?

just to name two examples: many feminists are telling women that they are oppressed (=victimized) by "the patriarchy" and a lot of people are claiming that black people are still systemically oppressed (=victimized) in the USA.

I'm not claiming that those examples are true or false, I want to show that this is not a straw man.

> There are real victims in the world

indeed there are but this article (and the comments) are not about them.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm older than I used to be. I've gotten better at figuring it out "in real time" and that's been enormously helpful. Life is better than it used to be. I feel like my gender still contributes to some people wanting to play the sympathy card and justify their crap. I think they actually know better and they know it's BS but they think I will fall for it anyway for whatever reason. It gets tiresome to deal with people…

I'm not sure it's that you're a woman or that you're empathetic, good natured, choose to avoid conflict, in addition to being technically skilled. There does seem to be a correlation between the two, but in my experience, what you're discussing here isn't unique to women. I see it happen to a lot of men as well, including myself. They are manipulators. Their skill isn't in getting their job done, it's in manipulating…

I have reason to believe that my gender is a factor. I'm absolutely not suggesting that no one ever does any men dirty.

I did some volunteer work in town for a couple of organizations that are supposedly trying to do economic development and I was trying to use that as a means to make connections and develop a better income.

I had applied for a job locally and the guy that got it fits your terrific description: He's a manipulator and has no talent for doing the job. He was stealing ideas from me and actively denying me credit, thereby killing my hopes of establishing a better income on the ground locally.

He and other people were loading me up with volunteer work because I was actually getting things done and he apparently wasn't. He measured his so-called productivity in terms of the number of meetings he attended each month.

I quit all my volunteer work last year in May. It wasn't any one thing and he wasn't the only reason. Part of it was the pandemic and I just didn't want to become "the dog everyone kicks" because we are all losing our marbles during a pandemic.

I am absolutely certain that after I quit in part to try to escape his abusive bullshit, this awful guy continued to cyberstalk me and steal ideas from me without giving me credit, like he did when I was doing volunteer work in a good faith effort to help my town become a better place. And I cannot tell you how burned, used and pissed off I feel about his amazingly shitty, abusive behavior. It's gone way beyond the pale for being anything understandable or excusable.

But I think one element of why he was able to get away with his crap is that I did a lot of volunteer work when I was a homemaker and a number of people involved in these organizations are married women doing volunteer work themselves (mostly retirees in this case). And I think some of these people failed to connect the dots that I was obviously very poor and clearly trying to improve my income.

I think some of them just sort of mentally lumped me in with other women there who weren't there with any goal of improving their own income because they have enough.

That one guy who was stealing my ideas and intentionally screwing me over -- his behavior is outright unethical and wholly unforgivable. But I have mixed feelings about the part other people played and I can see where some of them just sort of assumed on some level that I was a comfortably well off homemaker whose man was taking care of her even though that clearly was not true.

And that's partly because I am a former homemaker and likely behaved a lot like these other women who have well-heeled husbands and don't need to network to try to establish an income. I "read" as being enough like them that kind of on autopilot they failed to get the memo that "I'm here because you people are supposedly doing economic development and I'm dirt poor and need more earned income."

Like you, I also take time to gather information and make a decision based on context and patterns over time. Abusers, like the guy stealing my ideas, like to interpret that as "She's put up with it this long. She will keep putting up with it."

That seems to be a key difference. Decent people seem to be more aware that "I've got two strikes against me already. I need to get it right from here on out or I'm through." and abusers are like "They let it slide twice. They will clearly let it slide again and I can count on this indefinitely." (And then they actively try to con you into "just one more chance...just one more chance.." ad infinitum.)

And it's a case of "I know you actually know better and are intentionally being abusive because you keep trying to take more from me even after I've tried to cut your sorry ass out of my life, you piece of shit of a human being."

This is far beyond "I gave freely and he just was too stupid to realize that I expected him to actually do his job and help me improve my income." He's not qualified to do the job. He knows that. He obviously knows that and has zero plans to actually do the job and had zero compunction about actively denying me opportunity -- in direct contradiction to his duties -- so he could pretend to have ideas of his own and pretend to work just enough to keep his paycheck.

Keeping his paycheck was his only real goal and he doesn't care that he's not only crapping all over me, he's crapping all over this small town that is paying him to make the town better.

He's basically a vampire. I think he absolutely knows that and isn't at all bothered by it. He has zero ethics or conscience.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#437
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hand wavey? The US was founded by entire colonies of people coming overseas to worship the Christian God freely. Many key founders were deeply religious; believing all forms of government are doomed without the help of the Christian God. The Christian God was a huge factor in government and repeatedly credited as the guiding force and inspiration for the entire endeavor. Christian prayer and Bible reading was a publi…

All with different interpretations of the Christian god (or not Christian, as in the Jewish diaspora). The Spanish who settled colonies in Florida and California, the French in Louisiana, the English, Polish, and German settlers in Jamestown would all struggle to agree on a common set of definitions or rituals except there was a bible in there somewhere. I was led in prayer at public schools, and private - doesn’t me…

How do you see it that way?

What if it were mathematicians from all over armed with the same Calculus book hand waving that everyone should ignore the idiosyncrasies of their alma mater or their professor's flavor of finding derivatives? What if the founding documents they wrote all spoke highly of Calculus; Calculus books in every classroom. To me it sounds like people weren't hand waving away God, but setting aside their idiosyncrasies to worship the same Christ.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#438
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up a middle-class white kid in a good family in California so was pretty much oblivious to victimhood until I went to college in Missouri where the notion of racial inequality was drilled into me to the point I actually learned to fear people of other races held a grudge against me. Although I've been aware of this learned fear and done what I can to mitigate it, this means I might sometimes fear interracial i…

I grew up as a white kid in a good middle class family in the UK. I still got bullied by (white) kids at schools. The idea that all bullying is race related seems nonsense to me. Maybe it's different in the US.

Bullies typically choose a kid that somehow differs from the rest of the group. How specifically that kid differs, that depends on the specific group. In some groups, it will be the kid of a different race, in other groups in will be the nerdy kid. If there are multiple candidates, the bullies will probably choose the "safest" one, that is the one with smallest risk that someone will intervene and punish them.

The culture can have an effect on evaluation of the "safest" victim. If everyone knows that no one important will care about a black kid being bullied... And in a different town, maybe everyone knows that no one important will care about a kid from a poor family.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#439
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This list is more tailored to highlight systemic racism in criminal justice, but the economic side is just as important. There are much higher levels of poverty in black communities and that can be directly tied to the fact that in many ways black people were systematically prevented from building wealth for most of US history while white people were provided trillions of dollars in government subsidized economic opp…

This list shares a lot in common with these sources for a youtuber's racial policing videos: https://www.the1janitor.com/sources Is there a meta-source you got your list from?

I've seen the same list elsewhere in social media. I think it's a copy-pasted text that's in frequent use. Examples pulled from a search:

https://twitter.com/_SAWI__/status/1299096866789834754

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/mpabvz/serious_r...

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#440
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This list shares a lot in common with these sources for a youtuber's racial policing videos: https://www.the1janitor.com/sources Is there a meta-source you got your list from?

I've seen the same list elsewhere in social media. I think it's a copy-pasted text that's in frequent use. Examples pulled from a search: https://twitter.com/_SAWI__/status/1299096866789834754 https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/mpabvz/serious_r...

Can I just say this makes me really happy to see this getting around. The list I shared here is my own compilation. It's nice to see others have found it useful.
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