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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

331–340 of 510 posts

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#331
post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

Macro vs micro. Appropriate advice at the individual level is often very different than, and sometimes the complete opposite of, appropriate advice at the demographic scale. It's fine to tell your brother to quit the shit and pick himself up by his bootstraps or whatever; it's both inappropriate and ineffective to translate that notion into social policy. Systemic racism is a macro concern. Talking about it, and what…

> Macro vs micro.

Are these really opposites? Hannah Arendt famously tied those together in her work "Eichmann in Jerusalem".

She pointed out that Eichmann, convicted architect of the Holocaust, wasn't necessarily a sociopath, but instead an extremely average and mundane person who relied on clichéd defenses rather than thinking for himself, was motivated by professional promotion rather than ideology, and believed in success which he considered the chief standard of "good society". Banality, in this sense, does not mean that Eichmann's actions were in any way ordinary, or even that there is a potential Eichmann in all of us, but that his actions were motivated by a sort of complacency which was wholly unexceptional

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem#The_bana...

The question that gets skirted when discussing "systemic racism" is this: what does this actually mean? How does it manifest itself? make it concrete?

The notion "systemic racism" covers a vast territory of human interactions and feelings. Mostly the uncomfortable one's that aren't easily discussed: indifference, complacency, egoism, irrational fear, insecurity, mistrust and so on.

Right now, there's another post on HN's frontpage about toxic workplaces. A toxic workplace is the result of emergent behavior of many individuals in that workplace. Both leadership that acts complacent rather then address human issues, and workers who don't feel engaged, incentivized or motivated and put their own interests, frustrations, irritations, fears,... up front.

In that regard, formal public policies - social, economic, political,... - are also a representation of emerging behavior, the fluctuating emotional state of a large group of individuals, a community, and the norms and values which grow prevalent and come to dominate collective thinking as time marches on.

Eichmann himself didn't pop up overnight, after all. He ended up becoming because both personal circumstances and factors, as well as the larger societal and environmental circumstances pushed him in that direction. That doesn't excuse what he did, but it does explain why it happened. And it's a relevant lesson to keep in mind when discussing inequities in modern day terms.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#332
I just want to plug in two books by Alice Miller, mainly about childhood, the effects of growing up in a 'not-good' environment - that sort of thing. I found her to be very level-headed.

[1] The Drama of Being a Child by Alice Miller (also know by the IMO bad title 'The Drama of the Gifted Child')

[2] For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence by Alice Miller

Edit: Also a good comic named 'On a Plate':

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/the-wireless/373065/the-pencilswo...

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of just saying systemic racism exists, why not point out examples? Then people can judge for themselves what effect it may have on them instead of feeling like there's this oppressive "other" which is the cause of anything they don't like about their life and there's no point struggling against it because it'll just crush them anyway.

This list is more tailored to highlight systemic racism in criminal justice, but the economic side is just as important. There are much higher levels of poverty in black communities and that can be directly tied to the fact that in many ways black people were systematically prevented from building wealth for most of US history while white people were provided trillions of dollars in government subsidized economic opp…

If you wanted to talk about about systemic racism you would talk about things like single family zoning and ability to get mortgages.

There was a strongtowns article that literally had nothing to do with race, merely about getting rid of single family zoning. It didn't take long for someone in the comment section to post how building affordable housing in those places will ruin everything and everyone is naive because they haven't had to live in a ghetto.

There was an economics explained video about real estate that even implied that race was one of the factors was how far the homeowners are away from other races.

Coming from Europe this was completely unexpected for me, turns out, segregation in the USA never went away it merely became more socially acceptable.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#334
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you think about Affirmative Action? Is it systemic racism or systemic antiracism? Racism of course. Since it’s selecting people based on race. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

In theory but there is effectively already in many cases greater affirmative action for white people already. Lets look at Harvard as a case study. 43% of white students at Harvard are legacies, athletes, or related to staff and 75% of these 43% wouldn't have been admitted on merits. Around 1/3 of white people at Harvard are there because of effectively white affirmative action. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/s…

[deleted]

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#335
post #320
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more factors to systemic racism than just worse economic outcomes, so it's naive to assert that only black people experience its negative effects. Immigration comes to mind, where profiling is rampant in enforcement (but only really for people who look Mexican, not for people who look / sound Canadian). Or even immigration quotas -- there's the same annual green card cap per country, whether it's India or C…

Whoa. Now you’re using “systemic racism” to cover a lot of stuff that isn’t racist at all. Immigration quotas that you speak of were created to increase diversity of immigrants. If we didn’t have them, then Chinese and Indian immigrants would get most of the visas pushing out other countries. It’s actually the opposite of systemic racism since it’s increasing racial diversity of immigrants.

How is it not racist if it discriminates against people based on race? Sure it increases equality of outcome, but it decreases the equality of opportunity.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#336
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those are systemic causes. Those are all cases of individual prejudice or racism adding up to make a statistical significance. Calling this systemic racism is a good way of how to never solve the actual problem.

What? This makes no sense to me.

There is a difference between rules and laws being racist (systemic racism) and people being racist (boring old normal racism).

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#337
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a society built for Christians (or for “Christian ideals” which this country was founded upon) starts to acknowledge and accept others, the folks against these changes think everyone else is being too sensitive. When a society built with slaves and r*ping and pillaging indigenous populations starts to acknowledge that there’s issues that stemmed from that, the folks against these changes and dialogue think every…

You do know that most of the founding fathers were far from religious people (especially Christian religious), and the whole church and state separation thing was there from the beginning because about the only religious thing anyone could agree on was generally A god (and depending on the founding father that was controversial) - not the specific flavor/interpretation of the god? Unlike some European states, the Uni…

Hand wavey?

The US was founded by entire colonies of people coming overseas to worship the Christian God freely. Many key founders were deeply religious; believing all forms of government are doomed without the help of the Christian God. The Christian God was a huge factor in government and repeatedly credited as the guiding force and inspiration for the entire endeavor.

Christian prayer and Bible reading was a public school item until the mid 1960s. Church and state separation was entirely redefined around then as well; it didn't mean back then what people think it means now. The ten commandments was in courthouses. There are people still alive today that were led in prayer to the Christian God every single day of public school (and required to read the Bible); they're everywhere.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#338
post #335
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa. Now you’re using “systemic racism” to cover a lot of stuff that isn’t racist at all. Immigration quotas that you speak of were created to increase diversity of immigrants. If we didn’t have them, then Chinese and Indian immigrants would get most of the visas pushing out other countries. It’s actually the opposite of systemic racism since it’s increasing racial diversity of immigrants.

How is it not racist if it discriminates against people based on race? Sure it increases equality of outcome, but it decreases the equality of opportunity.

It’s not based on race but country of origin. If you’re a white person who was born in China you’re subject to the limits as well.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That treatment by the way, is extremely problematic. White people are empowered to amplify people like Ilhan Omar, who are extremely unrepresentative of their group, but are discouraged from amplifying people like my dad, a Biden voting Bangladeshi immigrant who hates being called a “hyphenated American” and wants to live in a “colorblind” society.

It’s gross to choose Ilhan Omar here as your throwaway example. Omar gets dumped on all day every day by a parade of disingenuous GOP-partisan bullies who are essentially indifferent to her words and actions, but feel profoundly threatened by the mere presence of a young, African, Muslim, refugee woman in a position of power. Though she grew up in a really tough situation and has worked hard to overcome it, she does…

I dump on Omar and the rest of the squad as a middle-left Democrat for the sole reason that they are costing the left many centrist voters who otherwise agree with us. I also think that the extreme stuff that they push is actually bad and would hurt people.

It's fine to be an extremist, I am as well along some axes. But it is just dumb to think that everyone who is not as extreme as you is a Republican/fascist/communist/white supremacist/critical race theorist. Worse, it hurts your cause by tainting the center-ey people who can actually get things done with the stink of rabid activism.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#340

I'll be more brazen. I don't know about other countries, but if you live in the US and am an adult of sound mind and body, you're not a victim. If your life isn't working for you, reassess your situation, develop a plan, and get busy!

The trouble with being a victim is there's nothing to be done about it. Deciding to not being a victim is empowering, as it means you can do something about it.

Do you mean being a victim, or being helpless?

I am a victim of a crime - I need to take the required action to get legal retribution.

Saying “I am not a victim” does nothing to help me.

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