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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

141–150 of 510 posts

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO one of the big civil rights achievements was to get rid of that divide. This never happened. You can't just eliminate explicitly racist laws from your books and expect all the racism and bigotry which led to those laws in the first place to disappear by magic. Pretending like there aren't different outcomes and general experiences between races also doesn't magically eliminate those differences. If you can’t me…

>>IMO one of the big civil rights achievements was to get rid of that divide. >This never happened. Speaking as an American raised in the 1990s, the cultural programming of my childhood at least made progress in that direction. I was raised on popular TV shows like Sesame Street, Captain Planet, and Power Rangers, which showed people of all races coexisting in settings where race did not divide them. When the issue o…

Off-topic, but I opened the above comment in a new tab (to read replies later) and got this:

https://imgur.com/a/pxz1qCS

Completely bizarre. Looks like a bunch of 0's got written into memory at random intervals. Is it flaky RAM on the HN server? Has anyone else seen HN content render like this? Reloaded the page, and now everything looks normal. Running memcheck on my laptop as a next step...

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#142

This is a good time to recommend some supplementary reading: The Coddling of the American Mind[1], a book that does a great job of outlining what has changed in the last 30 years and why there is very much a generational gap at play with how people perceive themselves. It turns out, raising kids in an environment of "safetyism" where nothing ever goes wrong makes full-grown adults really unresilient, and more prone t…

I really like their original The Atlantic article of the same name ( https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-cod... ) but was disappointed by the book, too much repetition and filler material. Still worth a look, though, and the situation has not gotten better in the last 5 years.

https://archive.is/rgv6L

(as updated 2019, though I don't know if there are any differences, significant or not)

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists. It may be better for children of color to be ignorant about it, but certainly not adults of any racial background.

Instead of just saying systemic racism exists, why not point out examples? Then people can judge for themselves what effect it may have on them instead of feeling like there's this oppressive "other" which is the cause of anything they don't like about their life and there's no point struggling against it because it'll just crush them anyway.

[deleted]

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists. It may be better for children of color to be ignorant about it, but certainly not adults of any racial background.

Instead of just saying systemic racism exists, why not point out examples? Then people can judge for themselves what effect it may have on them instead of feeling like there's this oppressive "other" which is the cause of anything they don't like about their life and there's no point struggling against it because it'll just crush them anyway.

This list is more tailored to highlight systemic racism in criminal justice, but the economic side is just as important. There are much higher levels of poverty in black communities and that can be directly tied to the fact that in many ways black people were systematically prevented from building wealth for most of US history while white people were provided trillions of dollars in government subsidized economic opportunity that black people were excluded from. From the homesteading of thr 1800s to the fha backed loans that gave white people homes in the suburbs for lower mortgage rates than black people had to pay for rent to live in the redlined slums they were cordoned into by law.

[1] Police stop black drivers significantly more than white drivers when the sun is up and they are able to see that the driver is black, but not at night when they can't see the race of the driver. Meaning race is often the determining factor for why black drivers are pulled over.

[2] Unarmed black people are 3.49 times as likely to be killed as unarmed white people and local crime rates have zero effect on this statistic.

[3] Black and white officers use force at similar rates in white neightborhoods, but White police officers use force significantly more compared to black police officers when responding to calls in minority neighborhoods.

[4] Police in oakland find contraband at the same rate regardless of the race of the person, but search black drivers 4x more often.

[5] The more white a suspect appears to be the less likely police are to use force. The more black a suspect appears the more likely it is that police will use force.

[6] Black police officers are more likely to be shot by their fellow police than white police officers.

[7] Oaklad police disproportionately handcuff blacks at stunning levels regardless of which area of the city you look at.

[8] In San Francisco, “although Black people accounted for less than 15 percent of all stops in 2015, they accounted for over 42 percent of all non-consent searches following stops.” This proved unwarranted: “Of all people searched without consent, Black and Hispanic people had the lowest ‘hit rates’ (i.e., the lowest rate of contraband recovered).”

[9] The DOJ investigation into Ferguson PD, found “a pattern or practice of unlawful conduct within the Ferguson PD that violates the 1st, 4th, and 14th Amendments to the Constitution, and federal law.” The scathing report found that FPD was targeting black residents and treating them as revenue streams for the city by striving to continually increase the money brought in through fees and fines.

[10] In Chicago, a 2016 report found that “black and Hispanic drivers were searched approximately four times as often as white drivers, yet Chicago PDs own data show that contraband was found on white drivers twice as often as black and Hispanic drivers.”

[11]2014 ACLU analysis of Illinois DOT data found: “Black and Latino drivers are nearly twice as likely as white drivers to be asked during a routine traffic stop for ‘consent’ to have their car searched. Yet white motorists are 49% more likely than African American motorists to have contraband discovered during a consent search by law enforcement, and 56% more likely when compared to Latinos.”

[12] Black people are more likely to be wrongfully convicted and more likelt to be framed for a crime they didn't commit.

[13] Black kids are more likely to be tried as an adult.

[14] Black people get 20% longer prison sentences for the same crimes even when you control for criminal history.

[15] Black students are more likely to be arrested at school. This appears to be a function of increased security at predominantly black schools and not because black students commit crimes at school at higher rates.

[16] Security levels in schools are determined by how many black kids go to the school and not crime levels.

[17] Predominantly black schools are chronically underfunded compared to predominantly white schools.

[18] An identical resume with a white sounding name like Stephen or Susan is twice as likely to recieve a call for a job interview compared to the same resume with an ethnically black sounding name like Jamal or Latisha.

[19] Minorities who alter their resumes to seem white get more job interviews.

[20] Banks targeted black homeowners for predatory homeloans and refinancing in the lead up to the 2008 crisis. Causing black families to be disproportionately harmed by the forclosure crisis.

[21] owner-occupied homes in black neighborhoods are undervalued by $48,000 per home on average, amounting to $156 billion in cumulative losses. This study controls for crime rates. Neighborhood amenities like schools, parks, walkability, and public transportation. The size and age of homes etc.

[22] In an experiment landlords responding to emails treated Blacks, Arab males, Muslims, and single parents unfavorably.

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0858-1

[2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

[3] https://www.nber.org/papers/w26774?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_me...

[4] https://stanford.app.box.com/v/Data-for-Change

[5] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/194855061663350...

[6] https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/wien...

[7] https://sparq.stanford.edu/opd-reports

[8] https://sfdistrictattorney.org/sites/default/files/Document/...

[9] https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releas...

[10] https://chicagopatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PATF_Fina...

[11] https://www.aclu-il.org/en/press-releases/traffic-stop-data-...

[12] https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race...

[13] https://www.wnyc.org/story/black-kids-more-likely-be-tried-a...

[14]https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-d...

[15] https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/01/25/black-students...

[16] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160608180824.h...

[17] https://psmag.com/education/nonwhite-school-districts-get-23...

[18] https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

[19] https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes...

[20] https://www.aclu.org/files/field_document/discrimlend_final....

[21] https://www.brookings.edu/research/devaluation-of-assets-in-...

[22] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01660...

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#145
post #112
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how at no point it's occurred to you that maybe people are just being polite or considerate towards the beliefs of others...or that a business might not want to stipulate a specific theological belief it's employees must put forward. That just can't be it for some reason, it's got to be a conspiracy against christianity! Talk about victimhood...

Depending on where you live in the US, this actually did happen. I'm one of the people who bought into that crap.

White "Elder millennial" here, who grew up in red states with a Boomer dad who tried really hard not to drop the N-word in anger around me, but I still heard it a couple times. The "programming" worked on me great. I was all primed for this post-hate, post-racial society. I believed it. Legitimately. I was dedicated to judging people by the content of their character. Men, women. White, black. Whatever. IDK how it worked on everyone else but if fucking worked on me. It worked.

My... I dunno, mid 20s? Were a shock as I discovered we weren't all on the same page. It's just gotten worse over time.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists. It may be better for children of color to be ignorant about it, but certainly not adults of any racial background.

I'd argue there's a lot more nuances to system racism than the general narrative that is currently being perpettuated. Looking into those nuances would be frowned upon because certain groups differ from other groups for reasons that are not truly understood but would cause us to ask questions we're not comfortable with. Though anecdotal, I know several adults who have fallen into the "it's because systemic racism tha…

I mean really. Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic? The laziness comes first. The excuse is crafted after the fact. If it wasnt that they'd claim to have some other disadvantage or problem.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#147
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. When I was young, victimhood was mostly scorned. "Don't be a crybaby." "Shake it off." "Toughen up." "Words can't hurt you." These were the messages I got from parents and teachers when I was feeling sorry for myself.

That seems to be an orthogonal issue. Namely, the expectation that whatever wrong you have suffered should be righted. The message is to shut up because nobody is going to help you. Certainly effective to getting the victim to stop complaining. But that's not the same as actually coping with the issue, or better yet, solving it.

You're confusing the problem here.

Sometimes coping with issues is just learning to ignore them, you must learn that even though you feel hurt there it is not worth putting energy into dealing with what people say and do.

People forget that 50% of the people on the planet are below average, its best to remember that when you're dealing with life. You can't expect these people to have reasoning and logic skills, emotional resilience or even base levels of compassion.

"Toughen up princess" can frequently be the best advice you can give someone.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#148
post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

Same thing but I have girls. I don't want them growing up with the locus of control outside of themselves. The studies are convincing that that is the worst thing you can for a child.

Check out the following book, I have found it a useful with my own daughter: Raising girls who like themselves by Kasey Edwards.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#149
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. When I was young, victimhood was mostly scorned. "Don't be a crybaby." "Shake it off." "Toughen up." "Words can't hurt you." These were the messages I got from parents and teachers when I was feeling sorry for myself.

That seems to be an orthogonal issue. Namely, the expectation that whatever wrong you have suffered should be righted. The message is to shut up because nobody is going to help you. Certainly effective to getting the victim to stop complaining. But that's not the same as actually coping with the issue, or better yet, solving it.

Well, maybe it seems like it's just trying to get you to shut up, but part of that message is that you're the one who's in control of your reaction, and that's what you can reliably control in that kind of situation. That even if your feelings are hurt, fundamentally you can still be OK, if you can learn to let it slide off you rather than getting all tied up about it. That's a pretty helpful, if difficult, lesson to learn.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue there's a lot more nuances to system racism than the general narrative that is currently being perpettuated. Looking into those nuances would be frowned upon because certain groups differ from other groups for reasons that are not truly understood but would cause us to ask questions we're not comfortable with. Though anecdotal, I know several adults who have fallen into the "it's because systemic racism tha…

I think American culture has potentially gone down an ever-worsening path that comes from assuming blacks and whites are inherently identical. That leads to the belief that the persistent differences in life outcomes must be caused by oppression. That means there's an oppressor who is evil and deserves punishment. What if the fundamental assumption isn't true? How long do you keep punishing the oppressor for? Not to…

Wait, what?

We went from "teaching about systemic racism might be harmful", to "systemic racism doesn't exist", to "Blacks are inherently different from other races, which will naturally lead to different outcomes" to "critical race theory might lead to nazism."

This is a wild rollercoaster of a thread and I want off of it. To jump off the original commenter's point, if you're concerned that there might be harmful outcomes from teaching students that society is keeping them down, why aren't you worried about similar outcomes that might come from teaching them that their race makes them inherently less suited for certain tasks?

I mean, think about what you're implying here. To claim that inherent race differences is the reason there's a Black wage gap -- ignoring everything else about that statement, it's way more fatalistic than telling kids that there are adverse social structures they should be aware of. Imagine being a teacher in a poor neighborhood and telling your class that the negative experiences in their life exist because of the fact they're Black -- not because of systemic racism, not because of laziness, not because of luck, but because of how they were born. You really can't get more fatalistic and harmful than that.

It's so utterly embarrassing to see comments like this on HN, directly under other comments that claim that racism is a solved problem. Sometimes this community really creeps me out, I'm watching people in the same breath argue that racism is solved and that Blacks are genetically predisposed to being poor. How does this pass muster?

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