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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

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Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#401

Post by treis »

ericd wrote: post #149
treis wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be an orthogonal issue. Namely, the expectation that whatever wrong you have suffered should be righted. The message is to shut up because nobody is going to help you. Certainly effective to getting the victim to stop complaining. But that's not the same as actually coping with the issue, or better yet, solving it.

Well, maybe it seems like it's just trying to get you to shut up, but part of that message is that you're the one who's in control of your reaction, and that's what you can reliably control in that kind of situation. That even if your feelings are hurt, fundamentally you can still be OK, if you can learn to let it slide off you rather than getting all tied up about it. That's a pretty helpful, if difficult, lesson to…

Or you can teach them to fight to be treated fairly and to fight for others to be treated fairly. That's what I see out of the generation in their 20s. They don't seem to see themselves as victims. They have a keen sense of justice and are willing to speak out.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#402

Post by epakai »

breakyerself wrote: post #144
exporectomy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of just saying systemic racism exists, why not point out examples? Then people can judge for themselves what effect it may have on them instead of feeling like there's this oppressive "other" which is the cause of anything they don't like about their life and there's no point struggling against it because it'll just crush them anyway.

This list is more tailored to highlight systemic racism in criminal justice, but the economic side is just as important. There are much higher levels of poverty in black communities and that can be directly tied to the fact that in many ways black people were systematically prevented from building wealth for most of US history while white people were provided trillions of dollars in government subsidized economic opp…

This list shares a lot in common with these sources for a youtuber's racial policing videos: https://www.the1janitor.com/sources

Is there a meta-source you got your list from?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#403

Post by epakai »

julienfr112 wrote: post #358
breakyerself wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This list is more tailored to highlight systemic racism in criminal justice, but the economic side is just as important. There are much higher levels of poverty in black communities and that can be directly tied to the fact that in many ways black people were systematically prevented from building wealth for most of US history while white people were provided trillions of dollars in government subsidized economic opp…

"Black people get 20% longer prison sentences for the same crimes even when you control for criminal history" Why "Even" ? It does not say anything about racism if you do not control for other factors, like criminal history and society inclusion. It's phrased as if it would still hold without control variable, and the author is doing a favor to potential nitpicker. It may be true, but the "Even" does not make me conf…

Repeat offenders are often given longer sentences. Mandatory minimum sentencing plays a big part in this. I assume that's what they're trying to control for.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#404

Post by epakai »

nec4b wrote: post #367
breakyerself wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? This makes no sense to me.

Most of the examples were about police targeting black people disproportionately compared to other races concluding that is because of systemic racism. Is there a law that compels police officers to behave in such a way? The answer is none. Therefore it can't be systemic. The targeting comes from individual decisions by individual officers. Whether this is from prejudice or bad experience or plain racism is unknown.…

What if a certain group of laws (say drug laws) was created specifically so police could target certain minorities? There isn't any particular motivation in the law to arrest more black people for marijuana use, but despite similar usage by race (2-4% difference https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2017/08/11/char...) arrests for Blacks happen at 3-6 times Whites. There's lots to suggest the war on drugs is racially motivated, but it criminalizes drug use and possession, not race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_the_war_on_drugs)

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#405

Post by epakai »

prestigious wrote: post #161
breakyerself wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists. It may be better for children of color to be ignorant about it, but certainly not adults of any racial background.

Systemic racism no longer exists or at least I’m completely unaware of it. I find proponents of this theory like people who believe in big foot. Somehow he’s out there but they have zero evidence for it

Voter ID laws disproportionately affect racial minorities to this day, and are tantamount to a poll tax until the State bears the burden of providing ID.

https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-...

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#406

Post by silicon2401 »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #393
munificent wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which doesn't really correlate because victims can turn out to be assholes themselves. And, in particular, victimhood is often contextual and temporal. The oppressed person today may turn around and oppress someone else tomorrow. (And, in fact, fewer things predict likelihood of abusing more than a history of being abused.) If our culture's moral system is based on partitioning the graph of interactions into "victi…

It is an ironic paradox that: Attempts at destroying binary labels in one dimension create new binaries in adjacent dimensions. Basically maximizing labels (identities) creates an inherent conflict amongst identities because it further removes them from a unified label or identity group. As people more tightly identify with the group that highlights their _differences_ from other groups instead of their _similarities…

> To make matters worse, if discussion of this potentially negative outcome of progress is seen as taboo then the cultural "brakes" that can be used to positively integrate the changes into the future society will be cut.

This is already happening. Talk of diversity is a duplicitous facade, as people are pushing more and more for segregation and uniformity, and issues are becoming matters of dogma rather than opinion. Hence why, as you said, it's taboo to have any questions or doubts about a group's narrative.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#407

Post by reaLg_move_in_3 »

Klinky wrote: post #317
4gotunameagain wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the history of humanity , not only of the west.

Not exactly, if you want to narrow it down to North American history, compared to some other countries, NA was rather slow at coming to terms with these issues, and compromises were made over the decades which propped and continued institutionalized racism, bigotry, and misogyny, which have had lasting effects to this day. Also saying it's a universal humanitarian problem doesn't make it "not a problem" or victimless…

> NA was rather slow at coming to terms with these issues

But so were other parts of the world. Many countries in the Middle East continued to have slavery far beyond North America (Saudi Arabia did not outlaw it until 1962) and the Middle East is certainly culturally and historically very different from NA.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#408

Post by patcon »

throwawayboise wrote: post #29
WalterBright wrote: post #2

It's popular to be a victim these days. Much more popular than I recall it being earlier in my lifetime. It even goes so far as to regard people who aren't victims with contempt.

Agreed. When I was young, victimhood was mostly scorned. "Don't be a crybaby." "Shake it off." "Toughen up." "Words can't hurt you." These were the messages I got from parents and teachers when I was feeling sorry for myself.

I feel quite a bit of alignment with this article.

But also, I def understand that scorning victimhood is exactly the sort of thing a culture would do when those in control (and with greater influence to shape narratives) are hurting a ton of people. It's a ridiculously effective way to avoid reckoning with our impacts on each other. And so of course someone with power to shape a narrative would use that ability to make being "too much of a victim" the taboo (not maliciously, just for self-preservation and limiting their own cognitive overhead of existing).

I'm firmly in the middle of this conversation. There's a balance of what's healthy for society imho. We have pockets in various places where unhealthy levels of one view or the other have concentrated. And sometimes these bubbles have moments of floating up to the top levels of societies, in fad-like ways. Then we see how things start working, and we learn and adjust <3

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#409

Post by tolbish »

JamesBarney wrote: post #280
tolbish wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it logically follow that issues of systemic racism are a bigger problem than the narrative of systemic racism? Can't that be true without being a brainwashed white guilted liberal?

One problem is the narrative makes it harder to make progress on systemic racism. Outside of very liberal strongholds identity politics can't get passed and they get in the way of any progress you want to actually make at trying to minimize the difference in outcomes between races.

You are assuming that admitting existence of systemic racism is identity politics.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#410

Post by breakyerself »

epakai wrote: post #402
breakyerself wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This list is more tailored to highlight systemic racism in criminal justice, but the economic side is just as important. There are much higher levels of poverty in black communities and that can be directly tied to the fact that in many ways black people were systematically prevented from building wealth for most of US history while white people were provided trillions of dollars in government subsidized economic opp…

This list shares a lot in common with these sources for a youtuber's racial policing videos: https://www.the1janitor.com/sources Is there a meta-source you got your list from?

I compiled this list.
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