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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

361–370 of 510 posts

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about explaining, it's about identity, ideology and activism. To posit the issues as 'merely explaining' is kind of to strawman people's legit concerns. CRT, for example, goes way beyond 'explaining' - on purpose. If this were an in issue of merely 'explaining to people who systematic limitations might work' - and being sufficiently nuanced about it, then I think this whole thing would be a lot less con…

> CRT, for example, goes way beyond 'explaining' - on purpose. That is not true. Critical Race Theory is a framework for viewing legal and social structures through the lens of race and racism. I’m not an expert here, but this seems to be a fairly balanced summary: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r...

CRT is a form of activism and ideology that goes far beyond explaining.

The link you provided is a nice reference, but it's a very small-c conservative description and avoids the harder parts of the issue.

The notion that 'minorities face challenges that majorities will have difficulty perceiving' is not unreasonable. But CRT uses language such as 'White Supremacy' - reminiscent of Men in Pointy White Hats' to describe those 'majority systems'. Their stated objective is to 'deconstruct and destroy Whiteness', implying that the 'majority culture must be removed', and that those who do not realize this and actively participate are holding up structures of White Supremacy.

So they use 'whiteness' in kind of an abstract way, something that 'stands in contrast to blackness' - but they also mean every classical cultural trait.

Things like a 'focus on the correct answer', 'focus on literacy', 'objectivity' etc. - these are artifacts of 'whiteness and white supremacy'.

The link you provided actually is fairly decent, if that text represented CRT then I think there would be controversy, but much less so.

But CRT in practices uses the language of race war: 'Destroy Whiteness or you are a White Supremacist'. In that case 'Whiteness' is effectively an ethnicity, broadly 'Westerners' or 'White People'.

Finally, even if we can agree on what CRT is, it plays heavily into ideological victimhood: 'the student failed to learn to read at a high level because that's a racist, colonial imposition, and shouldn't have to achieve literacy to graduate high school' etc..

When we're talking about 'systematic issues' then those who have a propensity for victimhood can view racism/sexism in literally everything. The 'truck' toy with the 'boy' on the front cover? Gendered language? Your company founders are white and male? It's all oppression.

On one hand, while the notion of systematic racism has legitimacy, CRT ideology opens up an ugly pandora's box that allows people to take an activist perspective on the basis of conjecture about literally everything and it plays directly into, and validates people's worst bigotries.

This article about how 'the sidewalks are racist' is not a joke. They make completely unsubstantiated and bigoted notions about how 'White people walk on sidewalks' at Northwestern U. This is the kind of crude, fantasy racist bigotry, supported and endorsed by CRT thinking. [3]

From the University of Toronto [1]

Wikipedia [2]

[1] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory

[3] https://dailynorthwestern.com/2021/04/05/opinion/allen-are-t...

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, this comment section is full of blanket dismissals that speak to living in a bubble away from people with very real grievances. I would say it is not particularly philosophical or moral or factual - it is a reflection of personal material status.

Thank you. An empathetic voice of reason - for a change (a rarity on HN)

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Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#363
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do everything right, then one day a cop decides you were reaching for a gun instead of a wallet. Yes, choices matter, but sometimes the choices of others limit your own.

I've been pulled over many times. Here's what I do: 1. put my hands on the wheel in plain sight and keep them there 2. when the cop says "driver's license" I say "it's in my wallet in my right front pocket. I do not move. 3. cop says "ok, you can get your wallet". 4. I use one hand to get my wallet and the license. 5. cop says "registration" 6. I say "it's in the glove box" and I do not move. 7. cop says "ok you can…

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Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're overgeneralizing. The data showed that it can be learned through trauma or PTSD experiences, but to claim "It is not learned by simple teaching and seeing others attitudes" is not defensible. Based on the researcher's comments about kindergarteners, they seem to think it can be learned through simple teaching.

> Based on the researcher's comments about kindergarteners, they seem to think... In this situation, one thing is supported by data, the other is inferred from what you think the researcher thinks. Generally this forum looks down more on "they're indoctrinating our children with X!" claims without some actual data.

I'm not saying it's true, I'm just saying the study as represented doesn't support claiming it's false, and that the researchers words support my position.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're overgeneralizing. The data showed that it can be learned through trauma or PTSD experiences, but to claim "It is not learned by simple teaching and seeing others attitudes" is not defensible. Based on the researcher's comments about kindergarteners, they seem to think it can be learned through simple teaching.

Except they have no evidence for it, so I’m not sure why we should be bothered what they might “think”. There’s also little a priori reason to believe that might be true.

I think there's a lot of a priori reason to believe that might be true. The phenomenon of vicarious traumatization points to a mechanism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarious_traumatization#:~:te....

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. I don't see how you can possibly deny the existence of systemic racism in a country where all the top educational institutions actively discriminate against asians.

What do you think about Affirmative Action? Is it systemic racism or systemic antiracism?

Antiracism is racism, by definition. The question should be whether it is justified/justifiable, not whether it's racism.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#367
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those are systemic causes. Those are all cases of individual prejudice or racism adding up to make a statistical significance. Calling this systemic racism is a good way of how to never solve the actual problem.

What? This makes no sense to me.

Most of the examples were about police targeting black people disproportionately compared to other races concluding that is because of systemic racism. Is there a law that compels police officers to behave in such a way? The answer is none. Therefore it can't be systemic. The targeting comes from individual decisions by individual officers. Whether this is from prejudice or bad experience or plain racism is unknown. For that you would have to divide individuals officers into buckets by their race in see the statics for each bucket. For example do black officers also arrest disproportionate number of black people? You would need all the combinations from different buckets to get a sense of underlying reasons.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s gross to choose Ilhan Omar here as your throwaway example. Omar gets dumped on all day every day by a parade of disingenuous GOP-partisan bullies who are essentially indifferent to her words and actions, but feel profoundly threatened by the mere presence of a young, African, Muslim, refugee woman in a position of power. Though she grew up in a really tough situation and has worked hard to overcome it, she does…

I dump on Omar and the rest of the squad as a middle-left Democrat for the sole reason that they are costing the left many centrist voters who otherwise agree with us. I also think that the extreme stuff that they push is actually bad and would hurt people. It's fine to be an extremist, I am as well along some axes. But it is just dumb to think that everyone who is not as extreme as you is a Republican/fascist/commun…

They are not extremists.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#369
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the phenomena it describes are real, for sure, at least with respect to Black people. My Maryland county wasn’t desegregated until 1968, in my parents’ generation. That has produced statistical disparities that persist to this day.

Then what are you arguing? That it exists and doesn't exist at the same time?

I never said it doesn’t exist, I’m talking about how it’s taught to children in school.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a moral or a factual statement? I guess I'd reject the whole victim/perpetrator dichotomy and say that people's conditions are contingent on forces largely out of their control. That's a factual statement. Lots of people and societies find this very uncomfortable - we generally like the cosmos to be largely about us, down to our decisions, both for the better and for the worse.

On a practical level, this is a bad view to hold. Individuals with an external locus of control have worse life outcomes. Having an internal locus of control, the idea that you do have a large amount of control over your life, results in better outcomes.

I definitely believe they're correlated, but are there any studies demonstrating a causal relationship?
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