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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#431

Post by coldtea »

IAmEveryone wrote: post #387
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mission statements are always bullshit. The reason being that I have never seen a case where, when push comes to shove, that a company would forgo needed revenue if it contradicted their mission statement. Instead what happens is that leaders go through mental gymnastics trying to show "No, it still aligns with our mission statement, you just have to twist the meaning of the words in the mission statement beyond any…

Categorically denying any role for these statements (or rather what they represent) seems slightly silly. We all have values and goals besides money, and when they inevitably come into conflict, we make decisions. Google sees "organising information" as its mission. My desk would currently make an excellent opportunity to organise some information. Are they going to pay someone to sort all these papers? Probably not.…

>Categorically denying any role for these statements (or rather what they represent) seems slightly silly. We all have values and goals besides money, and when they inevitably come into conflict, we make decisions.

That's because we are people, not organizations.

>Google leaving China is another example. Yes, they may soon return. But in the meantime they left a few billion on the table.

Just because of bad PR/backslash. They were perfectly OK to work there.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#432

Post by javajosh »

haberman wrote: post #239
AlexandrB wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems to capture the current intellectual zeitgeist very well. Once we name something, we can dismiss it without engaging it. In the internet age, this is a necessity because the other pattern is the same claims repeated over and over again with the expectation that a comprehensive rebuttal must be provided each time. At some point you have to name the thing so it can be added as an entry to Wikipedia and move…

Your arguments are examples of the false equivalence fallacy. [1] Sorry but I don't have time to provide any more comprehensive of a rebuttal. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence (This is why I don't think labeling is a rebuttal.)

I mean, I see what you're doing here, haha, but AlexanderB brings up a good point about asymmetrical debate, where one side says something sloppy, vague and poorly sourced and then expects you to "write a thesis" to rebut. Personally, I think this phenomena really does need a name, less to dismiss it, more to get lazy arguers to stop demanding high quality rebuttals (and at the very least to make the debate easier to walk away from). Fundamentally it's a kind of hypocrisy, but it needs a lyrical name. I like the pattern of naming a fallacy and then opting out that you're demonstrating, but a name could actually be useful. Indeed you could even term it a fallacy, the "vice demanding virtue" fallacy, or something like that.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#433

Post by gaius »

bepotts wrote: post #113
Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

And it's so transparent at this point. I've listened to podcasts with reporters and they lament the rise of Facebook and how "Facebook is stealing their business" through ads and algorithm changes that hurt them. But the bias doesn't matter because everyone on the internet hates them (and Google) so they just rush to pile on. Anything negative about Facebook gets to the front page very quickly. The thing is, Facebook…

The thing is, Facebook has billions of users and you don't get billions of users by being evil

This is such an obviously nonsensical thing to say. What about the tobacco industry? What about sweatshop-manufactured clothing? It’s easy to find examples where being evil is in fact a necessary prerequisite of getting billions of users...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#435

Post by ctchocula »

tanderson92 wrote: post #286
DenisM wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An aside. Chomsky made a sizable contribution to intellectual criticism of the modern imperialism. I wonder who will pick up the reins when he's gone?

Matt Taibbi in collaboration with Chomsky is writing a sequel to Manufacturing Consent, discussing history and the media environment since its publication. I'm not suggesting he is an heir, only that interested readers might check out.

Obligatory link: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/introduction-the-fairway

This was very insightful for me. I enjoyed how he interpreted Manufacturing Consent and pointed out that the obvious interpretation is mistaken i.e. that the media peddles lies. The thesis is more subtle than that.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#436

Post by hanniabu »

nemild wrote: post #169
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

It's basic marketing. Draw in the followers under false pretense, then all you have to do is worry about maintaining them which is much easier than bringing them in under honest terms.

This can be seen in politics as well. How often do electees follow what they were promising constituents while in the running. Then they'll do the same thing again and make a big fuss for the week or 2 prior to reelection, then go back to business as normal.

Likewise with products. Get the customer to come into the store, visit your website, or call a number. Then by the time they see it, or in some cases have already made a purchase, and find out thing aren't as advertised it's either already too late with s purchase made or they've "come too far" and the shortfalls are close enough to where they shrug and purchase anyways.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#437

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

memling wrote: post #339
jasonm23 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to say, the best thing about the Internet is the reasonable debate, and the accurate detection of sarcasm.

You have an absolutely terrible assessment of the Internet.

whoosh

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#438

Post by u02sgb »

memling wrote: post #339
jasonm23 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to say, the best thing about the Internet is the reasonable debate, and the accurate detection of sarcasm.

You have an absolutely terrible assessment of the Internet.

Oh the irony :)

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#439

Post by gehsty »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #133
eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

From my experience, most of this negativity just appears on HN or on channels who have some strong bias (usually business related) against Facebook. All my acquaintances working in tech, which includes people from very wide sociodemographics ranges, consider Facebook an absolutely prestigious employer, with top talent, top challenges, top compensation and top name for building a personal brand. Hell, I interviewed at…

Hey what are the top challenges that Facebook offer? I dont work in tech and follow HN as I find the less technical posts interesting, and I can’t grasp why people want to work in many of these companies, like where is the buzz from working at Facebook now?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#440

Post by Tempest1981 »

autokad wrote: post #403
gpm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that pay and working conditions at Facebook are as good as they are precisely because of people feeling like this. They are having to pay a premium to attract engineers as a result of the moral opposition.

I disagree. facebook pays a premium because they make a ton of money. Facebook has been a place people have wanted to work for a long time, and its only until January 2016 (which would contradict your theory) the media hate machine turned on them. I am not pro-facebook, but I do call it how I see it.

Some media coverage from 2014, Myanmar: https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/06/facebook-...

But yes, 2016 is when it hit home.

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