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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#271

Post by tropdrop »

kansface wrote: post #227
AlexandrB wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job. In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionar…

> In western societies, no job should pay less than a living wage... Pay is determined chiefly by supply and demand in the labor market. Jobs that are more fun pay less because the supply of workers is higher. Fairness is literally not part of this equation. > On the other side of the ledger, you have immigrants with medical degrees, who are driving cabs for minimum wage. Medical licenses are controlled by the govern…

> What does a living wage even mean..

The definition of living wage is fairly established. It is the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs. Needs are defined to include food, housing, and other essentials such as clothing. This definition is why, in the United States, at least, every few years Minimum Wage (used interchangeably here with Living Wage) would be raised, to keep up with inflation. It allowed the average American to start saving for a down-payment for a house even if all they had was a high school education and nothing else (so, the paperboy you mention). Until, for some reason, we stopped doing that as much.

Instead of looking at one of the most inflated rental markets in the country (SF), let's look at somewhere like Idaho - you'll find that inflation has still affected that place, but minimum wage (living wage) to be able to provide those basic needs has not kept up. This is why, countrywide, 40% of non-elderly adults report difficulty meeting basic needs such as food, housing, health care and utilities [1].

But let's consider that paperboy, for a minute. Do you really believe that the only people who deserve the most basic income to be able to live (living wage) are those that are capable of getting a higher education? What about all the other members of a functional society that we rely on?

[1] - https://www.urban.org/research/publication/well-being-and-ba...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#272

Post by sjg007 »

gxigzigxigxi wrote: post #243
marssaxman wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason you'd work for any startup - because startups are fun and interesting? You get a level of autonomy you can never have at an established company, with freedom to experiment and work creatively.

I know a fair number of people who had fun, interesting careers in their 20s. But when we talk about investments and saving, they all seem to suddenly realize that time is limited, and if you’re going to trade it for money, it’s best to get as much money for your time as you comfortably can.

I feel like a good stage play or even book has been written about this.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#275

Post by Jonanin »

elefanten wrote: post #242
Jonanin wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually do a poll of your coworkers on this topic? :) I think it's pretty reasonable to assume an investment banker isn't going to be much help to FB employees in finding a new job. Claiming that "Facebook will be known for having hired mediocre sell-outs a few years from now." is at best a baseless slander. How in the world is that not in bad faith? Spreading misinformation to aid one's short position is a…

1. No, it's not reasonable to assume a technology-sector investor isn't going to be able to help techie friends find jobs. 2. The "slander" was supported by an anecdote. And this is a comment section -- opinionated statements will be found. 3. What might be closer to slander is the fantastic assumption that the other commenter is shilling for a short position in Facebook. That's a mind-boggling assumption to make on…

I'm not "curiously silent" on my own bias. What do you want me to say exactly? You're trying really hard to paint the same picture you're criticizing, namely that I'm some sort of shill.

I think the idea that everyone at FB who doesn't leave immediately is a "mediocre sell-out" is very far from the truth, and contrary to my own experience. Thus I'm suspicious of people who claim such.

There's already enough people on HN that will type out a borderline vitriolic four point list of why anyone who defends FB is wrong.

Why don't you look at JumpCrisscross' post history? This isn't the only anti-FB article he's submitted. Or are you a bit biased here? :) He has even commented on FB's stock price and predicted it will go down more in the future.

My bias is that I think there's another side to the story.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#276

Post by marssaxman »

the_af wrote: post #216
marssaxman wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason you'd work for any startup - because startups are fun and interesting? You get a level of autonomy you can never have at an established company, with freedom to experiment and work creatively.

The (in?)famous article Don't Call Yourself a Programmer [0] argues otherwise. The author warns against working for a startup, unless you're the founder or committed to what he calls a lifestyle. Instead, he argues you can work for a hi-tech big corp, enjoying autonomy and fun projects as well as a good work-life balance. Not that I agree with everything in that essay -- some pretty cynical and controversial statemen…

That's a great article. I especially love the bit about equity, which ought to be valued at $0 for all practical decision-making purposes.

My experiences with the tech giants have featured neither autonomy, fun, nor anything resembling a work-life balance; they do pay well, but not well enough to make that kind of experience worthwhile. Life is here to be lived, not put off for later, and I'm not going to waste mine grinding away on a bunch of tedious bullshit so long as I have an alternative.

Then again, here I am writing from my cubicle at yet another tech giant, which recently acquired the startup I was working for, and it's been a much better experience so far. Who knows? Maybe I'll end up sticking around for a while.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#277

Post by DenisM »

sjg007 wrote: post #230
nemild wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any chance you know the pieces where he most focuses on this?

Here's a summary post: https://medium.com/@wtfmitchel/the-political-nature-of-indus... I guess I would read some of his books: Profit over People and the one on Media. He has a 1997 talk at northeastern on youtube where he addresses it a bit during question time.

An aside. Chomsky made a sizable contribution to intellectual criticism of the modern imperialism. I wonder who will pick up the reins when he's gone?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#278

Post by saagarjha »

Personally, I’ve just never applied. Based on what they do, I wouldn’t be surprised if I could do something useful at Facebook, but I just don’t think I could stand working there as it is now. Am I missing out on some potentially interesting projects? Of course. Will I have a lower salary? Probably. But generally I believe the compromises I need to make aren’t all that large, and I can feel better about myself just not working there. If they change their culture, sure, I might reconsider, but from what I’ve seen so far nothing has changed (down to the people they hire-some of my acquaintances who have gotten good offers from them are what I might call “morally dubious”).

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#279

Post by Swizec »

yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

It's like Tyson always said: Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Everyone is moral and principled until they have to choose between morals/principles and temptations. That's the true test.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#280

Post by AceyMan »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #194
gpm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that pay and working conditions at Facebook are as good as they are precisely because of people feeling like this. They are having to pay a premium to attract engineers as a result of the moral opposition.

Why do you think working conditions are good at Facebook. Facebook’s style of open-plan office & surveillance culture is one of the unhealthiest, anti-human work environments around. Even if the company had ethical self-awareness, I’d stillstay away just due to the physical health degradation that results from that type of open-plan office, and to help reduce the cargo-cult copying that leads other companies to mista…

Came here to mention the Open Plan Hell that being a FB dev would mean, which is just a layer on top of the primary evil they create with product.

Or do the kids just think that's how it is/has to be these days?

The data against open plans is abundant and solid, but firms just won't abandon a clearly failed design experiment .

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