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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#381
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Mostly, but not always. Patagonia seems to genuinely follow their mission statement:

"Build the best product, cause no unnecessary harm, use business to inspire and implement solutions to the environmental crisis."

https://www.patagonia.com/company-info.html

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook an absolutely prestigious employer Anecdotally, I’m helping several friends, who are each exceptionally capable, employed at Facebook with new jobs. They reached out before this revelation, to their credit, though this threw fuel on the fire. I suspect Facebook will be known for having hired mediocre sell-outs a few years from now.

From your profile: > I trade private equity stakes in technology companies. Former aerospace investment banker and before that, algorithmic equity derivatives trader. You're also the one who submitted this article. Somehow I doubt you are actually helping friends at FB find new jobs. I think it's much more likely that you are short FB. There's a lot of your type out there spreading articles like this as much as possi…

> I doubt you are actually helping friends at FB find new jobs

I did.

> it's much more likely that you are short FB

I don’t own a single share, nor am I short a single share, of any public company. I play in private companies’ equities and debts. That’s my day job, and it (along with super-safe bonds) are where I put my money. You may be confusing bankers with fund managers.

> you should spend some time thinking about what contributions you investment banker types are making to society

I think about this frequently. Many bankers waste their oxygen. But I don’t think I do.

At best, someone at Facebook might do something I strive to—help bring something new to the world that is good and wouldn’t have otherwise existed. At worst, I lose money. (Never fun, but by legal requirement I can only lose the money of those with very much of it.) At worst, Facebook prompts violent atrocities.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#383
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Mission statements are always bullshit. The reason being that I have never seen a case where, when push comes to shove, that a company would forgo needed revenue if it contradicted their mission statement. Instead what happens is that leaders go through mental gymnastics trying to show "No, it still aligns with our mission statement, you just have to twist the meaning of the words in the mission statement beyond any…

Usually mission statements are crafted to align incentives between employees and customers (or users, if the product you sell to customers is users' attention). The company's mission should focus on what the customer is trying to achieve with the company's product. As the company works toward that mission, customers accomplish their goals, they become dependent upon the product, they fork over lots of money, and the company's revenues rise naturally.

Where this fails is when a company actually achieves its mission. At that point, its original mission is taken for granted, but all of the negative consequences of that mission are suddenly on everyone's mind.

For example, Microsoft's original mission was "A computer on every desk, all running Microsoft software." Throughout the 80s and early 90s, that meant making MS-DOS and Windows easier to use, making Office handle more of the tasks needed for a modern office, and getting distribution deals so that all of these came pre-loaded. Customers benefitted from the increasing computerization, they forked over lots of money, Bill Gates became the richest man on earth. But after around 1998, Microsoft basically succeeded in that, people already had a computer on their desk running Microsoft software, and the biggest problem on their minds was that Microsoft had a stranglehold on PC software and was unfairly killing off new innovations in software.

Google's initial mission statement was "Organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful." When search sucked, email sucked, online maps weren't a thing, finding a book meant going to a library, finding an academic paper meant forking over hundreds to Elsevier, and "web browser" meant IE6, this was a huge service to humanity. But then around 2010, they succeeded at all of these, the baseline became "I can find anything I want now", and the huge questions were what kind of information does Google have on us and what sort of nefarious purposes could they use it for?

Facebook's mission was "Make the world a more open and connected place." The world is now a more open and connected place. The result is that people are routinely put in contact with folks whose views they find abhorrent, and that you can influence an election from the other side of the world, and that Facebook has all our personal data. While the world was still cut off from each other, everyone was happy to sign up; now that we're all on one big social network, they're miserable.

Once the mission statement is no longer a problem that needs solving, then the bullshit starts. Without an actual reason for the company to exist or for anyone to do the work they're ostensibly doing, people fall back on "Well, might as well make as much money as we can."

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of people who interview at the big tech companies + a couple small impact oriented startups, but it's very rare for them to take the small impact oriented startups offer. It's hard to turn down 250k a year.

I actually don't think this is true. Many computer science students are not only looking for morality in companies but also excitement. Also it's not 250K. Big Tech might give advantage of like +15K. Also, the work is not nearly as exciting. It's safe and cushy, but as a person in their 20s out of college, safe and cushy isn't fun.

Not all new grads will be making 250k, I know at least 2 were making around that 1 year out of undergrad. (+-20k)

https://www.paysa.com/salaries/facebook

I saw an offer for Facebook that included a 100k signing bonus.

I believe one acre funds highest salary for a software engineer is in the neighborhood of 120k.

I'm also speaking from experience, I am regularly trying to hire top tier talent to work on ending poverty in subsaharan Africa. I, and other I talk with in the space, have all seen this phenomena in Bay area candidates. I honestly don't blame people, it's an incredibly expensive place, it's just meant we do a lot less recruiting out of the us/bay area.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, FB's work/life balance is apparently pretty poor compared to other 'tier 1' tech companies. 50-60hrs+ is required to get above 'meets most expectations'.

Well, if the expectation is that you work a standard 40 hours, then 'meets most expectations' sounds like a typical and expected outcome from working 40 hours.

'Meets most expectations' is the lowest performance rating before they PIP you. 40hrs just to be on the precipice of unemployment is dumb.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your profile: > I trade private equity stakes in technology companies. Former aerospace investment banker and before that, algorithmic equity derivatives trader. You're also the one who submitted this article. Somehow I doubt you are actually helping friends at FB find new jobs. I think it's much more likely that you are short FB. There's a lot of your type out there spreading articles like this as much as possi…

I graduated six years ago, have worked at Microsoft and Dropbox, and anecdotally around a quarter of my friends at either of them wouldn't work at Facebook now. Parent comment is not obviously wrong, and you shouldn't assume bad faith. Your last submission was titled "We're lucky Mark Zuckerberg is in charge" and around half your comment history is devoted to defending Facebook. At least if you're going to question s…

Most epic burn of HN history.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#387
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Mission statements are always bullshit. The reason being that I have never seen a case where, when push comes to shove, that a company would forgo needed revenue if it contradicted their mission statement. Instead what happens is that leaders go through mental gymnastics trying to show "No, it still aligns with our mission statement, you just have to twist the meaning of the words in the mission statement beyond any…

Categorically denying any role for these statements (or rather what they represent) seems slightly silly. We all have values and goals besides money, and when they inevitably come into conflict, we make decisions.

Google sees "organising information" as its mission. My desk would currently make an excellent opportunity to organise some information. Are they going to pay someone to sort all these papers? Probably not. Does that mean they have sold out their values? Unlikely...

You're hiding some of that range in the phrase:

> push comes to shove,..

...which makes the idea rather meaningless. I've shown one side above, the other is equally trivial: When Google has few billion dollars it can invest either into wearable sensors for health tech, or opening a Pizza chain, they are more likely to go with the former, even if they have similar expected returns.

If "push coming to shove" is intended to mean a situation where the very existence of Google is at stake, then they'll choose to live another day, even if they have to scale back their ambitions. I doubt anybody would expect them to behave differently.

As for examples: it seems that Apple is forgoing some profits by not participating in the big data grab. Yes, it might also be a good business decision. But it takes some commitment to values to be motivated enough, and to have the courage, to make a decision so markedly different than what the competition does.

Google leaving China is another example. Yes, they may soon return. But in the meantime they left a few billion on the table.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#388
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Mission statements are always bullshit. The reason being that I have never seen a case where, when push comes to shove, that a company would forgo needed revenue if it contradicted their mission statement. Instead what happens is that leaders go through mental gymnastics trying to show "No, it still aligns with our mission statement, you just have to twist the meaning of the words in the mission statement beyond any…

I am not going to argue that mission statements are not bullshit, but I don't think your argument is persuasive. Just because you will compromise some values when push comes to shove doesn't mean those values were completely meaningless... it just means they were not as important as another value that they came into conflict with.

For example, I value pacifism. I think non-violence is almost always the right choice, and feel we should work towards a world of peace.

However, if I saw someone attacking my daughter, I might use violence to stop them if I felt it was the only way to protect her.

This doesn't mean that I don't value non-violence, or that my non-violence stance is meaningless. It just means that my value of keeping my daughter safe is more important to me than non-violence.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Out of curiosity, why don't they think Microsoft or Amazon are prestigious? Which one of those parameters do they fail?

Amazon is known to pay less and have a brutal work life balance. Microsoft is known for paying less and being too big and too political to the point where making an impact is really difficult. Mind you, this is on average: there are stellar teams at both of those companies that work on incredible stuff, and I would consider an honor and privilege to be in that situation, if the opportunity was given to me. Likewise,…

Weird. Are you saying the average Amazon or MS engineer has less prestige and that they are worse, if the companies are worse on average?

I personally couldn't get into Facebook or Google. What does that make me?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#390
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. In the same vein, video game companies have a negative compensating differential. Lots of kids want to grow up to program video games, so they don't have to pay them as much under worse work environments.

Yes that is precisely why video game companies can, on average, get away with lower pay, worse crunch, worse job security, etc.

WAY worse job security. It seems like every month there's a big Twitter thread about which developer laid off dozens as soon as they finished a project, with no warning or severance.
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