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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#371

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

nemild wrote: post #169
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Mission statements are always bullshit. The reason being that I have never seen a case where, when push comes to shove, that a company would forgo needed revenue if it contradicted their mission statement. Instead what happens is that leaders go through mental gymnastics trying to show "No, it still aligns with our mission statement, you just have to twist the meaning of the words in the mission statement beyond any reasonable recognition."

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#372

Post by jkaplowitz »

nojvek wrote: post #356
lrem wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in Google and the mission statement seems to be followed.

Show the ads to the most users with the highest bid price ? What is Google's mission nowadays? I don't see them following a lot of "Organize the world's information and make it open". There's a ton of closed walls, they even acquired companies like freebase and then their stuff went behind closed doors.

If I remember right from when I worked there (years ago), the wording is "Organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful." I can definitely see interpretations of that which require direct and open access to the raw data and others which just require universal and useful access to an assistive/suggestive product or service that leverages the data.

To be clear, I prefer the first interpretation, but I realize open data geeks (and those who would use the raw data if granted access) are far fewer than ML geeks (and those who enjoy the automagic suggestions) and the gap is only widening.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#373

Post by freyir »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

How about allowing teenagers to tag photos of each other drunk or high or doing something regrettable?

How about not actually deleting those photos from your servers when the kids request them to be deleted?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#374

Post by neves »

eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

Yes, it is a lot worse.

I live in Brazil, where a Facebook company, was used in a plot to spread fake news to elect a far right president. They are really against doing anything that may affect their bottom line.

No other tech company is this bad.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#375

Post by AndrewKemendo »

eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

Where is it ethical to work?

I'm coming to the conclusion, pretty much nowhere is inscrutable and free from scandal in one form or another.

However that doesn't give us a pass to be glib and just throw our hands up and say, it's all bad who cares, get money. Nothing positive comes from cynicism.

It's especially important to call this out when companies are talking about "making the world better" or otherwise making broad statements about them being a positive force in the world. It's incongruous between reality and their public relations, and that needs to be talked about.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#376

Post by tomglynch »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #375
eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

Where is it ethical to work? I'm coming to the conclusion, pretty much nowhere is inscrutable and free from scandal in one form or another. However that doesn't give us a pass to be glib and just throw our hands up and say, it's all bad who cares, get money. Nothing positive comes from cynicism. It's especially important to call this out when companies are talking about "making the world better" or otherwise making b…

Totally agree. I think a good example is the tobacco industry.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#377

Post by mabbo »

p1necone wrote: post #246
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Amazon has "Leadership Principles". Lots of them. And they (we? I work there) do seem to take them seriously.

Hiring? Every interviewer is trying to gain insight into one or two of those specific leadership principles. Promotions? Better have demonstrated them and have documentation to prove it.

It's not perfect, but the company tries really hard to make them not be bullshit.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#378

Post by flukus »

mcrad wrote: post #254
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Fun fact: Nike's mission is to do everything possible to expand human potential. https://www.economist.com/business/2018/08/02/mission-implau...

Does that mean nike are in favor of performance enhancing drugs?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#379

Post by PhasmaFelis »

1stcity3rdcoast wrote: post #323
crunchlibrarian wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like something a stoned frat boy would come up with as their first attempt at a mission statement.

Sure, but is it wrong?

Insofar as it's absolutely not what Nike does at all, I suppose you could call it "wrong", yes.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#380

Post by partyshah »

estsauver wrote: post #156
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

There are a lot of people who interview at the big tech companies + a couple small impact oriented startups, but it's very rare for them to take the small impact oriented startups offer. It's hard to turn down 250k a year.

I actually don't think this is true. Many computer science students are not only looking for morality in companies but also excitement. Also it's not 250K. Big Tech might give advantage of like +15K. Also, the work is not nearly as exciting. It's safe and cushy, but as a person in their 20s out of college, safe and cushy isn't fun.
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