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Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

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Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#341

Post by aerostable_slug »

const_cast wrote: post #307
gpm wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... it could be false positives, it could also be that almost no one (~1%) of smokers were caught before and this is actually a miracle technology that detects smoking. Frankly it tracks that almost no one was caught before.

> Frankly it tracks that almost no one was caught before. How? How does this track? Cigarette smoking is very conspicuous. I know, I used to smoke. It's not easy to hide! If you smoke inside, it will smell like smoke . Fabric and even plaster in walls will hold onto smoke for a long time. Not to mention the smoke smell goes under doors, too, so someone outside the room could smell it. If someone smokes in a room and…

They might be trying to indirectly generate revenue from legal marijuana.

Places like Vegas have a huge amount of recreational sales to tourists. They're clearly smoking the product somewhere, and it's not on the casino floor. One might bet they are engaging in some amount of activity with the potential to generate revenue for the hotel.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#342

Post by drawnwren »

satellite2 wrote: post #263
ludicrousdispla wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time I walked into a hotel room that smelled like cigarette smoke was in 1998, so I would think this is very uncommon.

Using an ozone generator you can remove all odors in a medium sized room in less than 30min. Only poorly organized cleaning staff would have this issue.

Which makes me ask why we even need smoking fees then?

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#343

Post by jimt1234 »

grishka wrote: post #216
hansvm wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big problem is the power imbalance. There's a reason they start your stay by putting a hold on a credit card. And even if you could charge them, they can afford a legal battle better than you.

Do hotels in the US not allow you to pay with cash any more? What if you don't have an internationally accepted card?

I worked at a small hotel during college. A couple of girls wanted to rent a room, but they didn't have a credit card. We didn't rent rooms without credit cards, but I made an exception. They paid for the room in cash and provided a small deposit. The girls were so sweet, how could anything go wrong? Well, they threw a party and completely trashed the room. Lots of damage. The police eventually showed up, but the girls were gone. The ID they provided turned out to be a fugazi. They played me.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#344

Post by lowbloodsugar »

chii wrote: post #147
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #4

Synopsis and excerpt: [Rest] markets itself as a way to "unlock a new revenue stream" with the help of a "robust algorithm" for detecting smoking. Hotels where these sensors are installed rack up complaints and negative reviews, after Rest sensors register false positives - thereby unlocking that revenue stream for the hotels. The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong…

> The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong I want to call this "responsibility laundering". You get money, but wash away any responsibility, thus cleaning it.

Sure they can. Sounds like a class action too.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#345

Post by torlok »

hansvm wrote: post #148
lxgr wrote: post #132

There has got to be a way to penalize companies for attempting this kind of thing. Even just removing the charge without discussion isn't enough, as some people will be traveling on a corporate card they don't necessarily monitor closely, will confuse the charge for something else etc. Otherwise, I'd love to be able to preemptively and without any prior communication charge (way in excess of the room rate, of course!…

The big problem is the power imbalance. There's a reason they start your stay by putting a hold on a credit card. And even if you could charge them, they can afford a legal battle better than you.

Is this a US thing? I stay at hotels from time to time across Europe, and I always pay a fixed price either when booking or at arrival for the whole stay. Never had to enter credit card information anywhere, and I never would precisely for this reason. I put my credit card information once when booking a car at an airport and was scammed with random scratches being found at return. Can't imagine ever going through that again. One of the worst and most infuriating money exchange experiences in my life.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#346

Post by mindslight »

DudeOpotomus wrote: post #131
vintermann wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often I wonder if some scammers (and this is totally a scam) basically pay a premium to feel like they've outsmarted people, or for the smirking satisfaction that their victims can't do anything about it. Some scams are so much work for so little gain, or so obviously counterproductive in anything but the short term, that it seems like that.

No, it's just stupidity and myopia. Like those screens that replaced glass beverage cases in liquor stores a few years ago. Not one customer liked them. Not one customer wanted them and the results were beyond terrible. People literally stopped buying. But people actually invested millions into that company and other people actually bought their products and thought "gee this is great". Imagine how disconnected you h…

For what it's worth, when I run into trash like that, I just open the door(s) and eave/prop them open while I browse. The entire point of having glass was so that people could browse without having to open the door, but apparently that doesn't matter to them any more.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#347

Post by loloquwowndueo »

yubiox wrote: post #203
newAccount2025 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t you do a charge back? Isn’t this a key kind of protection that credit cards give you?

Only if you want to get banned from ever staying in a hotel again

Are chargebacks useless now since they usually lead to being banned from that provider/vendor? Do a chargeback for a scammy App Store app, get your 1k smartphone bricked and your emails locked out?

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#348

Post by asdff »

lblume wrote: post #328
Eisenstein wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markets are efficient at extracting value from things, but what that value is needs to be determined before we blindly create a market for it. In the traffic light case you mention the value is money, when it should be safety. Traffic lights are installed to ensure traffic flow and safety, so getting a monetary return on a safety device should be non-sensical, but here we are. We should not be involving private marke…

How do you actually create aligned incentives though? Goodhard's law, cobra effects and generalized coordination problems really do seem pervasive.

I don't think it can be done without a sort of benevolent authoritarian which is sort of scary because of how much power and implicit trust is behind that. I wish we had a better signal to actually identify these people and elevate them into positions of power. They are readily identifiable in our own life ironically, I can think if plenty of people I know who I would say are trustworthy to do the right thing and not be blinded by profit. Just that for the subset of people who do want to make a buck on bad ideas saddled on top of people, incentives are very strong for them to get into influence, and there is no such mechanism to incentivize your good natured friend with no big profit seeking aspirations to that level. You need significant access to capital just to play in this league of getting elected or getting your company into the bidding process.

I think it comes down to the fact that we still don't have a meritocracy. It is still very much who you know from you getting a job to a company securing a contract with government, vs anything based on actual merit or ideas that are collectively beneficial vs selectively beneficial. Same old roman republic today: making favors to enrich the senators, making spectacles to distract the masses from the senators picking the public pocket. We haven't really changed the paradigm since it was established thousands of years ago with our first chieftans and shamans and their friends elevated above the rest of the tribe.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#349

Post by alistairSH »

mihaaly wrote: post #310
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #4

Synopsis and excerpt: [Rest] markets itself as a way to "unlock a new revenue stream" with the help of a "robust algorithm" for detecting smoking. Hotels where these sensors are installed rack up complaints and negative reviews, after Rest sensors register false positives - thereby unlocking that revenue stream for the hotels. The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong…

Actually when an algorithm results in something false, then you do not have to challange it, it is just simply wrong. Insisting and charging somoking based on implicit and obscure ways of a "revenue stream generating" detector is a pure scam or fraud. Those involved in this criminal endeavour should be procecuted. I will avoid Hyatt just in case and discourage my social circles too, warning them! No-one needs this sl…

Does Hyatt corporate have any say in this? Pretty sure many hotels are licensing the name, independent managed, etc.

Ie you’re just as likely to find these at an other brand hotels too.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#350

Post by veeti »

mrb wrote: post #193
spondylosaurus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I scoured their website to look for any clues about how it might (allegedly) work and got a fat lot of nothing. > Rest constantly monitors room air quality, using a proprietary algorithm to pinpoint any tobacco, marijuana, or nicotine presence. So a smoke detector with an "algorithm" attached. Uh huh. How does that algorithm work? > By analyzing various factors and patterns[...] Some cutting edge shit here! And as fo…

Given that this image: https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/653a9fbd1075088b6c8f8bd3/... shows PM2.5 and CO2(ppm) it may imply they monitor particles and CO2 levels. My guess is it also monitors humidity, and temperature. Humidity helps distinguish smoke from water vapor (eg. steaming shower). CO2 sensors are generally pretty accurate, but PM2.5 sensors are notoriously prone to false spikes usually caused by dust in or…

I wonder if you could set it off by farting too much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvB0wRFebus
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