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Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#311

Post by astrange »

will_pseudonym wrote: post #293
SomeHacker44 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I accidentally hit something on the touch bar, I hate that I still have a Mac. Every time I intentionally use the ESC and have to touch it two or three times, I hate the Mac. Every time I need an F key, or want to do something without looking (like change volume or hit mute), I hate the Mac. Thank goodness this year I stopped using it so much as I did not have to repair the keyboard twice and potentially g…

The critiques you have of Macbooks of touchbar and keyboard wouldn't apply to the Mac Mini. And they have an M1 Mac Mini. Personally, I would love an M1 Mac Mini that ran Linux well. Very exciting development.

They don't even apply to Mac laptops, which have different keyboards and a physical Esc key now.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#312

Post by saagarjha »

jd3 wrote: post #235
wmf wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Darwin isn't a good OS.

Fair point! I guess what I'm getting at is the fact that, even though Darwin isn't great, we know that it's building and running on all production M1 macs, can run X11, etc. which generally seems like what this project is attempting to do. I'm not a systems software engineer[0], so I'm not positive where the new drivers live for the M1 (are they in Darwin? proprietary/exclusive to macOS?), but if those drivers are av…

The drivers are proprietary.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#313

Post by astrange »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #87
ravi-delia wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On any other apple computer I'd agree, but I really want some of that sweet ARM magic.

Just wait for SiFive and RISC-V, that's going to be the revolution I'll join :)

RISC-V is a kind of lame and poorly designed ISA and the hardware designs aren't going to be nearly as fast.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#314

Post by iseanstevens »

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure if Apple did provide documentation, people would complain that it's incomplete, or would complain when it changes. I'd love a world where all tech documentation is open, but there are competitors etc etc.

Apple is a remarkably focused company with a lot of experiments that never see the light of day. They don't sell their chips or motherboards to anyone else.

Qualcomm/Broadcom etc exist to make their chips for other companies to use and still getting real documentation from them is often not possible unless you are a giant OEM, commit to millions in orders and sign lots of NDAs.

Apple's not only created a pretty great integrated CPU/GPU and nearly seamlessly transitioned CPU platforms (AGAIN!) but they are at the very beginning of this roadmap.

I'd LOVE them to empower/support Linux on Apple Silicon (as they seem to be saying they will for Microsoft) but I expect a generation of two of chips before things solidify/stabilize enough for them to open up the platform.

And, it's not like this is something within their business model or is going to give much value back to them.

Lots of people say Apple "Needs" to do whatever... Clearly they don't as they seem to be surviving OK doing things how they want.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#315

Post by astrange »

jd3 wrote: post #202

This is really cool! Does anyone know why a similar project doesn't exist currently using the open source distribution of Apple's Darwin operating system? It has always seemed strange to me that their open source BSD OS does not have an official distribution channel with a built in package manager like macports, pkg-src, gentoo prefix, etc. OpenDarwin and PureDarwin existed for awhile, but seem to have both been aban…

Darwin for M1 is not open source currently I think.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#316

Post by anothernewdude »

somehnguy wrote: post #278

Is anyone else ever saddened when they think about the man hours spent on projects like this (reversing software or hardware to accomplish what should be a simple goal) when all it would take is the teensiest bit of cooperation to not waste all those hours? I use waste in the sense of like trying to assemble something complicated with the instructions just out of arms reach, not in the sense of doing something pointl…

I would say that I wouldn't use Apple hardware if it didn't have an OS that doesn't prevent developers from working properly - like Linux.

But really, the state of their support is so garbage I don't care what the performance of their systems is like. I know their warranties aren't worth anything and their disregard for consumer laws is absolute.

Never will I buy their garbage.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#317

Post by anothernewdude »

iseanstevens wrote: post #314

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure if Apple did provide documentation, people would complain that it's incomplete, or would complain when it changes. I'd love a world where all tech documentation is open, but there are competitors etc etc. Apple is a remarkably focused company with a lot of experiments that never see the light of day. They don't sell their chips or motherboards to anyone else. Qualcomm/Broadcom etc exist…

Apple needs to stop treating its customers with contempt. Regardless of how okay its customers seem to be with it.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#318

Post by ageofwant »

zepto wrote: post #252
gorkish wrote: post #204

Apple needs to give a little here. I think it's patently ridiculous that we have to enlist the assistance of console hackers in order to have a chance at porting the most used operating system in the entire world to run on hardware that in all likelihood already happily runs it inside of Apple's labs. > In particular, we will be reverse engineering the Apple GPU architecture and developing an open source driver for i…

I don’t think there is any rush at all for Apple to do anything to support Linux on macs that are only a couple of months old. However I absolutely think they should produce a Bootcamp equivalent designed to support Linux on all Macs and iOS devices that Apple no longer supports with MacOS.

I don't think they have to do anything but publish the specs. That's not 'support' as far as I'm concerned. In fact its easy to argue that Apple will benefit from motivated top tier hacker feedback on their designs.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#319

Post by midrus »

reader_mode wrote: post #129
midrus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worst apple product is still far ahead of most non-apple alternatives. At least laptops wise.

My previous ThinkPad X1 is a superior device to my 15 inch i9 MBP (2018) in every way - thermals, keyboard, touchscreen, issues with 5k display for over a year, Bluetooth issues. I needed a Mac for iOS development so I went all out since I do all sort of development - and this is by far the worst premium device I owned. With that said M1 Macs look really good and I'll probably upgrade if they refresh the 16 inch.

I did use a thinkpad X1 for a long time some years ago, I actually want to go back to an X1, it is the best alternative. But honestly, if I go back to it would be making a good bunch of trade-offs as well and mostly to satisfy my inner wish of using Linux and Open Source software instead of Macos.

But still:

1) After a few months, the screen of the thinkpad started to get permanent scratches from the keyboards. This is a common problem, see [1]

2) The keyboard is better, totally agree. But the trackpad is much, much worse. I managed to adapt to the bad keyboard on the mac, I didn't manage to adapt to the trackpad on the X1.

3) The quality of the screen has no point of comparisson. Color gamut, calibration, resolution, etc. I like the WQHD screen, but it is not available for the X1 on many countrie outside the US. In my country (Spain) you only have the UHD which is a fantastic battery draining mirror or the FHD which reminds me of the nintendo 64 when looking at it. Let's not talk about scaling hi dpi resolutions, and deciding if using Wayland or Xorg so that I can plug an external screen with different resolution, etc.

4)Battery usage is not as optimized

5) I think nowadays this is better, but at the time (around 3 or 4 years afgo) I had lots of problems on Linux with bluetooth, resuming after suspending, and the fingerprint reader. Hopefully this has improved since then.

6) Price wise, they are as expensive as an equivalent macbook

A being "good" or "bad" has a lot of aspects to it. It is not just "It has the same CPU freq and the same amount of memory then they are equivalent" (not what you're saying but something many say when doing this comparison). Build quality matters, integration/support with the operating system matters, support matters, upgradeability matters, resale value matters.

And also, just compare the f*ng mess the Lenovo website is. Every time I think about going back to thinkpad, browsing such a terrible, slow, clunky, outdated, terrible thought out website makes me regret it and just close the tab.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=thinkpad+screen+keyboard+scr...

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#320

Post by midrus »

Wohlf wrote: post #103
midrus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worst apple product is still far ahead of most non-apple alternatives. At least laptops wise.

I really don't find them any better than the competing products in the same price range these days, but you do you.

Show me your examples of competing products.
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