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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#261
post #253
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Erdogan called for people to take to the streets, and within an hour, the airport and bridge were filled with thousands of people waving flags. (From pictures, all male.) That's popular support. The military is not attacking the crowds. The military presence was apparently not that big, concentrating on a few key spots. A coup has to succeed within the first few hours. Control must be established before oppositio…

Most successful coups kill the national leader right at the start.

Apparently there was a bomb placed at the hotel where Erdogan was vacationing, but he had already left by the time it went off.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#263
post #242
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The monarch is just another citizen - another random human - who just happened to be born into a particular family Nope. The monarch is someone who has been heavily trained in diplomacy and politics, and has a great network of political connections and the ability to speak with effect to powerbrokers. Whether or not the monarch is morally good is a different argument, but they are mostly definitely not interchangea…

Sure, yeah, I see that the monarch doesn't exercise much power; from the outside, the monarchy doesn't look like a practical problem. Until I read [commenter from military family on HN] talking about sworn allegiances when "push comes to shove". That's when I go 'woah'. >The monarch is someone who has been heavily trained in diplomacy and politics And born into a life of privilege, where even if they do very little,…

> And born into a life of privilege, where even if they do very little, they'll still reign.

Well, the monarch has a lot of duties-of-state. An endless procession of people to meet and ceremony to conduct. It's not like the UK monarch gets to laze it up in the sun on yacht in the azure coast week in, week out. And the nearby royal family do have to engage in some 'good works', or they will lose their social position to people asking 'wtf!?'. All the name-brand royals are heavily involved in charities and causes in this modern era, because if they start ignoring 'social duty', they'll lose their privilege. The days of the monarch just doing as he or she pleases are long gone, in the UK at least.

While "it's good to be the king", it's also not a lazy life. You also have to play the part and behave somewhat beyond reproach - the military aren't going to take their vows to the monarch so seriously if she started dressing and behaving like Johnnie Rotten.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

> However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering It was widely debated. I'm still not sure what was the best thing to do. At some point, you also have to ask how far we can tolerate things in the name of religion. Just because something is of religious nature doesn't mean that it has to…

If you are passing laws saying that girls are required to show their hair in school, and compromise their family moral values, as a mandatory display if secularism, you have gone to far in creating a bizarre new state religion.

Just because something is preferred by a subpopulation's religion and culture, doesn't meant it is a proselytic threat to the freedom and safety of others.

The French heafscarf law is populist demagoguery that threatens the integrity of the French Constitutional principles, and is near-universally condemned as bad law by legal scholars

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#265
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you like to see a Muslim country in the EU? Even without Turkey, we are trending in this direction.

Good question. Currently it's an echo chamber of similar minded Countries. I think in order for the EU to grow, it needs to entertain other trains of thought.

The EU is comprised of over 500 million people from a variety of backgrounds, many of which are indeed Muslim. Hardly an echo chamber. I fail to see what additional growth could be fostered through adding a Muslim majority country. Would you care to elaborate?

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#266
post #179
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and…

Perhaps the idea could be seen differently not as a ban but an enforcement of anonymity. Like its hard for me to judge you based on your username (depends on the username), but if we had profile pictures that wouldn't be the case. I don't really agree with France on this, but could the ban have positive effects by reducing prejudice by anonymity (look at this person vs. look at this muslim person) vs teaching toleran…

Every modern nation's conception of liberty differs. In no country does liberty mean that anything goes. And while many westerners (particularly Anglos) like to define liberty as "anything goes which doesn't negatively effect me", that only begs the question of where that line is to be drawn.

In France the pithy definition of political freedom is "liberty, equality, fraternity". Equality and fraternity are qualifiers on what liberty is supposed to mean, recognizing a collective responsibility component and thus helping to articulate where the line is to be drawn for when individual liberty conflicts with the long-term requirements safeguarding political liberty.

French laws don't ban Muslim dress, per se. They ban face coverings, which is only typical of some very conservative Arabic cultures. And they do so because a religious or cultural mandate that requires such dress is in direct opposition to the ideals of equality and fraternity, which are considered necessary for maintaining the liberty of the society as a whole.

We can disagree with that interpretation on many levels. But it's not illogical, per se. I don't doubt that the way it's been articulated and enforced has been corrupted by anti-Muslim and anti-Arabic animus. But it is what it is and fundamentally seems consonant with French political theory.

In the U.S. religious freedom is considered much more sacrosanct. In particular, Americans see safeguarding religious liberty as fundamental to political liberty; whereas I think the French notion is that safeguarding secularism is far more important. The reasons are historical and totally obvious--just reflect on what you learned about American and French political history in high school. In France the Catholic Church was one of the impediments to democracy. Whereas a large number of American colonists came here because of religious persecution abroad, and our political system evolved to protect religious denominations from the government and from each other.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#267
post #60
post #15

Anyone have a take on how successful this is likely to be? Both sides are claiming victory and that they've beaten the other side, naturally. Propaganda is everywhere. The only thing I figure is that since Erdogan is calling for a mass uprising in the streets, the status quo has him losing. He needs to radically change the dynamics of the situation to stay in power, and mass protests and displays of martyrdom in the…

No. Erdogan called for people to take to the streets, and within an hour, the airport and bridge were filled with thousands of people waving flags. (From pictures, all male.) That's popular support. The military is not attacking the crowds. The military presence was apparently not that big, concentrating on a few key spots. A coup has to succeed within the first few hours. Control must be established before oppositio…

The coup didn't succeed.

Not all the military units have given up, and this could still turn into a bloody mess. But the attempt at a quick middle of the night takeover failed.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#268
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the military takes over, then the opposition parties will loose power as well. It's also in their own interest to oppose to coup. In fact, anyone who likes democracy should be opposed to it

If you like democracy, you can't exactly be in favor of Erdogan either. Not to mention what will likely happen, if the coup fails. In the long term, this coup succeeding is probably the best option for democracy.

Indeed. There is a difference between democracy and liberal democracy.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#269
post #193

News flash: Those in power and relying on laws, rules and democracy think it's a good idea it remains. Well it's completely obvious they would have this stance. I don't think they've really anything to add. Hopefully things stabilise one way or another over there, innocent people getting shot helps nobody. What's interesting though is whether this instability will affect Turkey's chances for a seat in the EU. I would…

How about Bosnia and Herzegovina? They're 51% muslim and have applied to join EU earlier this year.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#270
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. Currently it's an echo chamber of similar minded Countries. I think in order for the EU to grow, it needs to entertain other trains of thought.

The EU is comprised of over 500 million people from a variety of backgrounds, many of which are indeed Muslim. Hardly an echo chamber. I fail to see what additional growth could be fostered through adding a Muslim majority country. Would you care to elaborate?

@gkya has done a good job of elaborating part of the reason being the Westernisation of Islam.

The EU is a highly Christian dominated place with a "them vs us" mentality. The EU tries to fix the world's problems without ever engaging the world's cultures. It's not about growth, it's about the future of civilisation. It's at a time where we need to be taking down barriers, not putting more up. We may not financially benefit from having Turkey, but it's certainly a step towards empowering the secular Muslims and moving forwards together.

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