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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#151

Post by mnbcvx »

ErrantX wrote: post #142
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday.

It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and as a poster below pointed out, feel naked in your new school.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#152

Post by jonny_eh »

desas wrote: post #131
Jugurtha wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have attained an interesting stalemate where a corrupt/crazy monarch would struggle to assert power, yet a grossly malfunctioning government can still, in theory, be replaced by one if the people were to allow it. Could you elaborate, please?

The monarch can suspend parliament. The monarch can dismiss a prime minister (not happened for > 100 years). The monarch can appoint a new one. Every law has to be signed by the monarch (it's not been refused in 300 years). The monarch is commander in chief. Power resides where people believe it resides. The monarch can only do any of that if people believe in the monarch.

> Power resides where people believe it resides

Also, sometimes power resides where the military decides.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#153

Post by jonah »

mtgx wrote: post #140
jonah wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The revolution will be televised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw

Sure, when you have an army backing you up. Do you think a revolution would be televised in Russia or China without the army's support? Even in the U.S., it would probably be covered as "terrorists trying to take over the White House" or whatever.

And is it actually revolution if those with power are simply exercising their power? Can the powerless even stage a successful revolution?

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#154

Post by DasIch »

ZainRiz wrote: post #109
BukhariH wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the west we only see Turkey as Istanbul which happens to be the extremely liberal part of Turkey. The rest of the country is far more conservative so they don't see the clamping down on various freedoms as being a problem and on top of the Erdogan has actually really done a good job of developing the poorer regions of Turkey which were rife with high unemployments and low prospects. On top of that people b…

If the military takes over, then the opposition parties will loose power as well. It's also in their own interest to oppose to coup. In fact, anyone who likes democracy should be opposed to it

If you like democracy, you can't exactly be in favor of Erdogan either. Not to mention what will likely happen, if the coup fails.

In the long term, this coup succeeding is probably the best option for democracy.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#156

Post by einrealist »

tobias3 wrote: post #129
majani wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a chart that describes the practical steps: https://embed.gyazo.com/4324b66e1a3045ad63349061a76f4756.png According to that illustration, the coup plotters missed the crucial step of breaching the president's residence and capturing him. They completely mistimed the coup when the president was on vacation outside the country. Now he has been able to rally support against the coup and his supporters are on the…

He was reportedly on holiday in Turkey in Marmaris, so maybe they did not know where he was or did not have the man power to capture him. I wonder how it would have played out if they had captured him. I can even imagine that more people would have protested.

Its funny how Putin and Erdogan were meeting a couple of days ago. Maybe Erdogan was warned and took "a vacation"?

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#157

Post by allendoerfer »

pdx wrote: post #79
r00fus wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they see the coup as endangering the economic situation which could lead to more job-losses and the like. Let's be honest, would you support a coup in your country if that meant potentially years of unrest and economic crisis?

> would you support a coup in your country if that meant potentially years of unrest and economic crisis Of course I would. Once you have children, you have a foot in the future. You look at what your counry will be like in 30 or 40 or 50 years. You don't focus so much on short term gains, but on long term gains. If you feel that your country is heading down the wrong path, and altering that path will result in a bet…

>[…] at the risk of near term economic pain that the remainers shouted from the roof-tops […]

>They did it anyway, because long term, they will be better off.

You make it seem like a fact and not what the leavers were shouting from the rooftops.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#158

Post by Jugurtha »

tobias3 wrote: post #81
Animats wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Erdogan called for people to take to the streets, and within an hour, the airport and bridge were filled with thousands of people waving flags. (From pictures, all male.) That's popular support. The military is not attacking the crowds. The military presence was apparently not that big, concentrating on a few key spots. A coup has to succeed within the first few hours. Control must be established before oppositio…

What should they have done (additionally)? E.g. take out/over all civil communication infrastructure, such as ISPs, cellular networks, phone landlines? Then enforce the curfew with actual deadly force (since they are not a police force with riot gear...)?

Two trucks and a few soldiers lined in a row like ducks. A tank sitting alone.

If the coup you're executing results in civilians being able to seize a tank and police having soldiers in custody, the coup lacked the overwhelming ingredient and swift execution that would paralyze and kill any hope of resisting.

It needed to be clear that the deal was sealed to morally crush anyone willing to resist and make them understand that it's done and they'd better line up with the winning party.

Civilians seizing a tank means they sized the military presence and said "Meh.. we're going for it anyway".

An example of a well executed coup: The Algerian coup in 1965. Algerians woke up in the morning and found tanks in the streets of the capital, but it wasn't the beginning of the coup. It had already taken place. Tanks didn't really surprise because Gillo Pontecorvo was shooting "The Battle of Algiers" during that period and also used tanks (one of the greatest movies. Music by Ennio Morricone).

The President was seized in his bed during the night, they woke him up and he was made prisoner for 15 years (liberated by the subsequent President after Boumédiène's death). The coup's instigator had the control of the Army and Intelligence before.

There are many people who don't know there was a coup in 1965.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#159

Post by sanderjd »

Dagwoodie wrote: post #147
ZainRiz wrote: post #105

How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment". They've basically turned their culture into a new religion

How is your anti-type of liberalism any different from how non-liberals are treated in western countries? Non-liberals are increasingly not tolerated by liberals (see recent SJW issues) the world over and increasingly face heavy fines/punishment if they don't follow the liberal culture.

I think you're using the common US political definition of "liberal" (which is close to a synonym for "progressive" or often even just "Democrat"), whereas at least to the point of your grandparent comment, my interpretation is that the definition being used is more like "classical liberalism"[0]. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but this is a common and unfortunate confusion that makes these conversations extremely muddy.

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#160

Post by ztratar »

pdx wrote: post #69
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

I support Trump. I have no problem with Putin. I find your equivalence of those two men to Hitler to be naive or intentionally inflammatory. Even given this, I do not, however, intend to quit using tarsnap!

The comparison between Hitler and Trump is not naive in any way. There are very logical, direct comparisons: blanket generalizations of a specific minority group, quick rise-to-power from populist hate-centric rhetoric, and lack of political or governmental experience.
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