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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#191

Post by Spooky23 »

jwhitlark wrote: post #122
cperciva wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws. And, at least theoretically, the military oath to defend the constitution could require them to overthrow a government which does not conform to the constitution. In practice, of course, issues are likely to be resolved before they reach that point.

It's also notable that there are many different militaries in the US: the 5 main national branches, the national guard units of the various states, as well as the state defense forces, that some states also maintain.

That's pretty nominal.

Good luck to the governor trying to muster the national guard to confront federal troops.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#192

Post by CSDude »

Reporting from Ankara, capital. Ongoing sonic booms followed by bombings. Scary as hell. My niece is 8mo, in each jet and helicopter pass we take cover on her and we baricated home with tables. No one knows what is going on, and media claims control is in place.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#193

Post by bArray »

News flash: Those in power and relying on laws, rules and democracy think it's a good idea it remains.

Well it's completely obvious they would have this stance. I don't think they've really anything to add. Hopefully things stabilise one way or another over there, innocent people getting shot helps nobody.

What's interesting though is whether this instability will affect Turkey's chances for a seat in the EU. I would really like to see a Muslim Country in the EU but at this rate their chances seem to be lessening.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#194

Post by mikeash »

bjourne wrote: post #165
mikeash wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the Nazis never had the support of the majority. It's a common myth that Hitler was elected, but he seized power at gunpoint after winning a minority of the legislature (albeit a sizeable minority). Putin is similar, with electoral fraud substituting for naked force. Trump remains to be seen. Erdogan, on the other hand, seems to legitimately enjoy the support of the majority. It may just be a quantitative d…

That's how it works in multi-party parliaments. It's very rare for one party to get more than 50% so instead the largest minority party (or constellation of parties) gets selected to form a government. NSDAP was that party in Germany in 1932. It's only in the American and English systems where there are only two options to choose from that a leader can claim "majority" support.

Yes, but in those other systems, the government rules with enough support from parliament to form a majority, even if their party doesn't have a majority on its own. The Nazis just pointed guns at everyone and said, "give us unlimited power."

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#195

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

afarrell wrote: post #180
bradleyjg wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those changes take away the benefit he outlines for his system. In the US system the President is the most dangerous actor (notwithstanding the Federalist Papers prediction that it would be Congress). That said, I'm not sure I like the idea of the military as a last resort. At most I think it would be best if they stood aside for a revolution rather than actually instigating a coup.

In the US, the last resort is theoretically the Unorganized Militia. However, as the name implies, they are unorganized and to rely on them is leaning on a broken staff.

but it is not even necessary for the unorganized militia to topple whatever entity takes power. The unorganized militia just needs to be omnipresent and unorganized. Not really a staff, but rather millions of pegs supporting the table of society.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#196

Post by mnbcvx »

trizic wrote: post #179
mnbcvx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and…

Perhaps the idea could be seen differently not as a ban but an enforcement of anonymity. Like its hard for me to judge you based on your username (depends on the username), but if we had profile pictures that wouldn't be the case. I don't really agree with France on this, but could the ban have positive effects by reducing prejudice by anonymity (look at this person vs. look at this muslim person) vs teaching toleran…

For most Muslim immigrants, their facial features and skin color are probably as much an indicator of their background as a head dress, not to mention things like accent that will ultimately give someone away. I really don't buy any argument for these policies. Being realistic, it was definitely a move to antagonize the Muslim population in France.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#197

Post by [deleted] »

ErrantX wrote: post #142
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

[deleted]

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#198

Post by Spooky23 »

oldboyFX wrote: post #127
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

Are you seriously comparing hitler with trump and putin? Holy crap some people are truly indoctrinated by their ideologies to the point of no return.

Before Hitler was Hitler he was just another demagogue.

That said, Hitler is about as close to the personification of pure evil as you get in secular society. So it's an inept analogy.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#199

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

CSDude wrote: post #192

Reporting from Ankara, capital. Ongoing sonic booms followed by bombings. Scary as hell. My niece is 8mo, in each jet and helicopter pass we take cover on her and we baricated home with tables. No one knows what is going on, and media claims control is in place.

it is 5:12 AM right now in Turkey. Have you been up all night or did you just wake up?

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#200

Post by yodsanklai »

mnbcvx wrote: post #151
ErrantX wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and…

> It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man)

Is it? there are tons of topless women on French beaches. I don't know about specific laws but nobody goes topless or naked while walking in a city (in France or elsewhere). I don't see this as a great restriction on my freedom. Actually, more worrying IMHO is that if a woman were to go topless in the street, she'd get more trouble from some (religious and macho) guys than the police.

> I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant

Sorry, but I don't find it scandalous to ask refugee or immigrants to make minor adjustments to their lifestyle. Every society has some common value that it wants to preserve, and as a French, I want as little intrusion of religion in public life. In particular, religion has no place in public school in my opinion, and i really hope it stays this way.

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