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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#251

Post by DasIch »

bjourne wrote: post #165
mikeash wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the Nazis never had the support of the majority. It's a common myth that Hitler was elected, but he seized power at gunpoint after winning a minority of the legislature (albeit a sizeable minority). Putin is similar, with electoral fraud substituting for naked force. Trump remains to be seen. Erdogan, on the other hand, seems to legitimately enjoy the support of the majority. It may just be a quantitative d…

That's how it works in multi-party parliaments. It's very rare for one party to get more than 50% so instead the largest minority party (or constellation of parties) gets selected to form a government. NSDAP was that party in Germany in 1932. It's only in the American and English systems where there are only two options to choose from that a leader can claim "majority" support.

No, it's not. In multi-party parliaments you have coalitions that together form a government. The NSDAP did not form such a coalition.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#252

Post by cperciva »

chj wrote: post #220
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

If the word Hitler is frequently used to scare people, soon it will lose its scaring power, just like handing out Nobel peace prize randomly loses its credibility.

I'm not trying to scare anyone. Hitler just happens to be a well-known example of someone who gained support through scapegoating.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#253

Post by bane »

Animats wrote: post #60
scarmig wrote: post #15

Anyone have a take on how successful this is likely to be? Both sides are claiming victory and that they've beaten the other side, naturally. Propaganda is everywhere. The only thing I figure is that since Erdogan is calling for a mass uprising in the streets, the status quo has him losing. He needs to radically change the dynamics of the situation to stay in power, and mass protests and displays of martyrdom in the…

No. Erdogan called for people to take to the streets, and within an hour, the airport and bridge were filled with thousands of people waving flags. (From pictures, all male.) That's popular support. The military is not attacking the crowds. The military presence was apparently not that big, concentrating on a few key spots. A coup has to succeed within the first few hours. Control must be established before oppositio…

Most successful coups kill the national leader right at the start.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#254

Post by bArray »

back_beyond wrote: post #236
bArray wrote: post #193

News flash: Those in power and relying on laws, rules and democracy think it's a good idea it remains. Well it's completely obvious they would have this stance. I don't think they've really anything to add. Hopefully things stabilise one way or another over there, innocent people getting shot helps nobody. What's interesting though is whether this instability will affect Turkey's chances for a seat in the EU. I would…

Why would you like to see a Muslim country in the EU? Even without Turkey, we are trending in this direction.

Good question. Currently it's an echo chamber of similar minded Countries. I think in order for the EU to grow, it needs to entertain other trains of thought.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#255

Post by gkya »

back_beyond wrote: post #236
bArray wrote: post #193

News flash: Those in power and relying on laws, rules and democracy think it's a good idea it remains. Well it's completely obvious they would have this stance. I don't think they've really anything to add. Hopefully things stabilise one way or another over there, innocent people getting shot helps nobody. What's interesting though is whether this instability will affect Turkey's chances for a seat in the EU. I would…

Why would you like to see a Muslim country in the EU? Even without Turkey, we are trending in this direction.

Islam is a religion just like the other abrahamitic ones, with an old book that's sort of surprising when read (I'm reading bible and am at Numbers atm, many gross things up until now, many awaiting), and some traditions around that. Embracing a muslim country would help weaken the extremist ones and inforce the more secular, peaceful, civil ones, (which are the majority in Turkey), as the former is mostly fed by what's projected as the hostility of west and incompatibility of 'their' civilisation with islam. Turkey has one of the strongest secular muslim communities (despite the later fundamentalists, who are always louder than the sane), and is a good candidate for initiating a process of secularisation of relations between the west and the near-east. Fundamentailsm is a global problem, but the fact that muslim world is in conflict makes out of it a fatal threat, whereas, in west where there's peace and a longer after-empire experience the worst you see is Jeovahs Witnesses, the anti-homosexuality people and anti-abortionists.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#256

Post by jychang »

the_af wrote: post #126
watermelon59 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangential, but why do people support Erdogan? From what I hear he's a terrible leader and moving towards a full dictatorship.

Sky News is interviewing a Turkish journalist right now, live ( http://news.sky.com/story/live-turkish-army-says-taken-power... ). She says she supports democracy , not Erdogan, and that she's appalled that a small number of soldiers can take that away from Turkey. She's also appalled that a NATO member has to deal with military coups... edit: the interview has just ended. I hope the clip can be found, because what t…

Not a Turkish journalist. She's a member of AKP, the party Erdogan founded. I'm appalled that Sky News would air such a biased source.

The Turkish military is good for democracy. This isn't true for other countries.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#257

Post by _nedR »

vmorgulis wrote: post #27
dzdt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not even clear yet who the sides are. Erdoğan released a statement that Gülen supporters (a religious group) were behind the coup, while the military seems to be claiming it is a secular coup, and has not named a leader behind it.

The both can be true. I think the coup is related to the recent position of Erdogan towards Russia.

This. Turkey apologized to Russia, and normalized relationships with Russia and Israel. Also their Foreign minister talked about mending ties with Syria - Assad's Syria.

All this happened in the space of a few weeks. It was such an about-face from their past postutring. I guess this puts things in context.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#258

Post by tamana »

Spooky23 wrote: post #198
oldboyFX wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously comparing hitler with trump and putin? Holy crap some people are truly indoctrinated by their ideologies to the point of no return.

Before Hitler was Hitler he was just another demagogue. That said, Hitler is about as close to the personification of pure evil as you get in secular society. So it's an inept analogy.

Hitler was a bog standard 19th-20th century genocidist who had the efficiency of German engineering as a force multiplier. He wasn't so different from Andrew Jackson who conquered North America or Stalin who slaughtered his own Russia

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#259

Post by _nedR »

jazzyk wrote: post #240
mnbcvx wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong, the head dress is banned in schools. "The wearing of all conspicuous religious symbols in public schools was previously banned in 2004 by a different law" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

You understand the distinction between Islamic veils/headscarves (which clearly imply religious affiliation) and clearly non-religious , headscarves worn by many style-conscious, but secular, women? Your misunderstanding may come from terminology - a headscarf need not be religious at all, and headscarves which are not religious (it is easy to tell the difference) are NOT banned.

The headscarf to muslims is not really a religious symbol like say a priests clothes or a nuns habit. It is a piece of clothing that is required (considered mandatory by most schools) to be worn by a woman to preserve her modesty. In that viewpoint, it is like pretty much every other piece of clothing . Are pants or tops religious symbols?

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#260

Post by thaumasiotes »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #185
pdx wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support Trump. I have no problem with Putin. I find your equivalence of those two men to Hitler to be naive or intentionally inflammatory. Even given this, I do not, however, intend to quit using tarsnap!

> I find your equivalence of those two men to Hitler to be naive or intentionally inflammatory. >> Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? This structure doesn't imply that the men are equivalent. It implies that the three questions share one answer. If I tell you that the reason we fine people for speeding is the same reason that mothers in Jonestown fed poison to the…

I'd really like to understand why this is receiving so many downvotes. What I've said amounts to pointing out that the same phenomenon can drive different outcomes, some of which may be very bad, some of which may be of limited scope, and some of which may be good. Is somebody going to disagree?
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