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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#211

Post by yodsanklai »

ErrantX wrote: post #142
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

> However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

It was widely debated. I'm still not sure what was the best thing to do.

At some point, you also have to ask how far we can tolerate things in the name of religion. Just because something is of religious nature doesn't mean that it has to be accepted.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#212

Post by vidarh »

king_phil wrote: post #201
vidarh wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't agree with the French approach of regulating dress, one of their arguments is that you do affect other people with your choice of how to dress, and that people should not have to be subjected to certain overt expressions of religion in certain contexts, with schools being a particularly sensitive topic because of their position in passing on the ideals of the republic. I think they go way too far, and a…

That means if I am a pastafarian (Google it if you don't know it - and yes, at least in Germany it is a approved religion) I can't put a noodle riddle on my head (because it is religious clothing for pastafarians) - or can NOBODY, just because it is religious clothing? And yes, you might not believe it, but in Germany there is a ruling that you are allowed to take your passport photo with a noodle riddle on your head…

The starting point of this in France is the idea that we should throw all this religion in the toilet and flush.

The principle governing French secularism - laïcité [1] - has its origin in freeing people from being subjected to the influence of the Catholic church. It's a such a direct reaction to religion being pushed onto people in the public sphere by putting in place restrictions aimed at severely curtailing religious influence in government and education.

In this context, it's worth noting that Turkish secularism was explicitly modelled by Ataturk on French laïcité. E.g. Turkey, like France, is constitutionally a secular republic.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#213

Post by learc83 »

fsaneq2 wrote: post #203
kiba wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda. As an American, I think of nothing when people wear hijab or whatever, and trust me, I am an atheist who think religion is irrational and that humanity would be better off without it. Maybe the French would be better off thinking nothing of it when someone wears religi…

I think the difference is that the French perceive obvious religious clothing similarly to someone wearing a T-shirt saying "I vote republican/democrat" in huge letters -- though I don't know, maybe that'd be considered fine too in the US (US schools, that is)? I see it as clearly unnecessary/voluntary (so it's quite different from being gay like in your example), so it's an attempt to advertise, which leaves a bad t…

Yes. A Shirt that says "I vote Republican/Democrat" would be perfectly acceptable in most places in America.

You'd get a bit of flack if you wore a conservative shirt in an extremely liberal environment and vice versa.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#214

Post by ng12 »

sdm wrote: post #171
kiba wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly a strong reminder that a democracy does not necessarily support liberalism like ours do in the West. It has to be a core tenant that the population believes in.

It should be noted that Turkey is generally considered a western country.

It seems to me that Turkey's politics reflect it's geography, as shown by tonight's events.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#215

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

Jugurtha wrote: post #158
tobias3 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should they have done (additionally)? E.g. take out/over all civil communication infrastructure, such as ISPs, cellular networks, phone landlines? Then enforce the curfew with actual deadly force (since they are not a police force with riot gear...)?

Two trucks and a few soldiers lined in a row like ducks . A tank sitting alone. If the coup you're executing results in civilians being able to seize a tank and police having soldiers in custody, the coup lacked the overwhelming ingredient and swift execution that would paralyze and kill any hope of resisting. It needed to be clear that the deal was sealed to morally crush anyone willing to resist and make them under…

but military knows it can't easily get away killing civilians.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#216

Post by gakada »

jazzyk wrote: post #206
ErrantX wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

Everyone take a deep breath. The ban in France is for face-covering only, and it applies to anybody (male/female). There are serious reasons for this, both cultural- and security-based. Head scarves are allowed in France, to the best of my knowledge. EDIT: The law bans "the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools" [1] So you can wear a head scarf as long as…

Headscarves not tolerated either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c...

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#217

Post by gkya »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #199
CSDude wrote: post #192

Reporting from Ankara, capital. Ongoing sonic booms followed by bombings. Scary as hell. My niece is 8mo, in each jet and helicopter pass we take cover on her and we baricated home with tables. No one knows what is going on, and media claims control is in place.

it is 5:12 AM right now in Turkey. Have you been up all night or did you just wake up?

We're all up here in Turkey, I haven't seen any houses with no lights. Kinda hard to sleep when there's a coup going on in your country...

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#218

Post by [deleted] »

mnbcvx wrote: post #151
ErrantX wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and…

[deleted]

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#219

Post by int_19h »

feral wrote: post #189
petercooper wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

>If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, I really find it difficult to believe its a desirable state of affairs that the army in a 'democracy' swears allegiance to a hereditary monarch, and that its good, if as you say, people in the army take that seriously. What if the interests of the monarch conflicted with the interests of the people? In some sense that meant 'push…

The idea is that the monarch cannot really exercise that power arbitrarily. If they try, their legitimacy will be questioned.

But if the parliament does something deeply unpopular with the general public, monarchy offers an escape hatch - essentially, a conduit for that sentiment to reign the parliament in, in a way that is not _technically_ illegitimate.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#220

Post by chj »

cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

If the word Hitler is frequently used to scare people, soon it will lose its scaring power, just like handing out Nobel peace prize randomly loses its credibility.
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