Coup attempt underway in Turkey • Hacker News Board

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#181

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 1:51 AM UTC

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #48

jvm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Ut semper, supercustodes.

Is "ut semper" really Latin? It seems a little too cute as a word-for-word fake equivalent of "as always".

I searched perseus for "ut semper" and found two results that might have relevance. The first was this:

> But the expression does not imply that he conceived them as 50 miles in perpendicular height, but that there is a continuous ascent of 50 miles to get to the summit. This explanation of the passage is adopted by Alexandre; Lemaire, ut supra.

Unfortunately, that is evidently English, not Latin.

The second was this:

> Quid quaeris? Est consul φιλόπατρις et, ut semper iudicavi, natura bonus.

(emphasis added)

Which I tentatively translate as "What are you asking? He is a filial consul and, as I have always judged, a good man by nature."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ut&la=la lists ut as having, among many, many other senses, the sense of "adverb of manner", which is the one at play in the above example and would also be the sense relevant to "ut semper". The dictionary entries give a large number of examples, but as far as I can see there are no examples in which the clause following ut does not contain a verb.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#182

Post by Shinkei » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 1:56 AM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #164

Shinkei wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture can be affected by draconian laws also. I believe religious clothing designed to oppress women is regressive and detrimental to Democracy. Please read this: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/sep/03/hengame...

That's funny that you mention democracy and oppression of women. Ancient Greeks of Athens and the other city states kept their women cloistered out of public. Women had no rights and were basically chattel in these societies. Democracy is like technology, morally neutral yet capable of great good or terrible inhumanity.

Fair enough. I agree on both points.

But my point was not that one system is 'better' or 'worse' but that religious head-wear should not be seen as some inalienable right that we have to accommodate to remain a free society. Even if many young Iranian women may feel 'naked' without it, it only took the religious dictators there one generation to make them forget how it used to be.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#183

Post by kiba » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 1:58 AM UTC

fsaneq2 wrote: post #172

ZainRiz wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?

Having been brought up in a French system and then going to a US college, I must say I strongly prefer the French system. I guess Americans would take offense to this view, but I find wearing religious clothing in a public institution such as a school incredibly obnoxious and pushy -- it's akin to your professor suddenly starting to push his/her political views onto you in an unrelated lecture, or something. It's not…

It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda.

As an American, I think of nothing when people wear hijab or whatever, and trust me, I am an atheist who think religion is irrational and that humanity would be better off without it.

Maybe the French would be better off thinking nothing of it when someone wears religious clothing, just as we are starting to think nothing of it when people are gay or transgender or whatever.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#184

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 1:59 AM UTC

fsaneq2 wrote: post #172

ZainRiz wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?

Having been brought up in a French system and then going to a US college, I must say I strongly prefer the French system. I guess Americans would take offense to this view, but I find wearing religious clothing in a public institution such as a school incredibly obnoxious and pushy -- it's akin to your professor suddenly starting to push his/her political views onto you in an unrelated lecture, or something. It's not…

> "I find wearing religious clothing in a public institution such as a school incredibly obnoxious and pushy -- it's akin to your professor suddenly starting to push his/her political views onto you in an unrelated lecture"

But prohibiting the wearing of religious clothing IS pushing political views.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#185

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:01 AM UTC

pdx wrote: post #69

cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

I support Trump. I have no problem with Putin. I find your equivalence of those two men to Hitler to be naive or intentionally inflammatory. Even given this, I do not, however, intend to quit using tarsnap!

> I find your equivalence of those two men to Hitler to be naive or intentionally inflammatory.

>> Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin?

This structure doesn't imply that the men are equivalent. It implies that the three questions share one answer. If I tell you that the reason we fine people for speeding is the same reason that mothers in Jonestown fed poison to their babies, I hope you won't think I'm equating the acts.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#186

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:02 AM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #162

petercooper wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

This is similar to the US system, except that our Speaker of the House has less power than the Prime Minister, and our President has (a lot) more power than the monarch.

Not at all. We don't have a seperate head of state.

The closest thing we have is the supreme power of the Supreme Court.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#187

Post by ChristianBundy » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:03 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #177

einrealist wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its funny how Putin and Erdogan were meeting a couple of days ago. Maybe Erdogan was warned and took "a vacation"?

It was widely noted in the media that France closed its Turkish embassy (on "security fears") two days prior to this. It certainly makes you wonder if the word didn't get out.

It's important to remember that those "security fears" were in reference to Bastille Day.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#188

Post by vidarh » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:03 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #33

whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

The U.S. separation of power is based on similar ideas. Congress makes laws on a day-by-day basis, but when the will of the people contradicts certain fundamental principles enshrined in the Constitution, the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws.

Almost all modern systems of separation of power are modelled to various extent on the principles set out by Montesquieu.

Montesquieu formalised the tripartite system in The Spirit of the Laws published in 1748, describing a model of separation of powers into a judiciary, executive and legislative based on the Roman Republic and the British constitution [1]. He also formulated the principle of checks and balances.

In the context of the US, Montesquieu was a strong direct influence particularly on Madison.

In the context of Turkey Ataturk was very inspired by aspects of established European Democracies, and the Turkish constitution included a very strong formulation of a tripartite system from the 1924 constitution onwards.

What is peculiar with Turkey is that the military sees itself as having a particular strong duty to protect the constitution that if necessary requires direct intervention, and have interceded unusually often, and have been unusual in each time handing power back to elected governments in a relatively orderly manner. Couple this with a constitution that was very radical in pushing secularism onto a very religious population where there are substantial portions of the population that wants religion to play a greater role, and you get the complicated nature of Turkish politics.

(Incidentally the secularism of Turkey was explicitly modelled after France)

[1] Yes, the UK has a constitution; it is just not codified in a single document, but consists of a set of laws and conventions and court decisions that are well documented. Yes, it's a messy system.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#189

Post by feral » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:05 AM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #92

whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

>If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch,

I really find it difficult to believe its a desirable state of affairs that the army in a 'democracy' swears allegiance to a hereditary monarch, and that its good, if as you say, people in the army take that seriously.

What if the interests of the monarch conflicted with the interests of the people? In some sense that meant 'push was coming to shove'?

The monarch is just another citizen - another random human - who just happened to be born into a particular family, who some time in the past probably did some game-of-thrones nasty things to come out on top. No one seriously believes they have a divine right to rule any more, so why should their interests be privileged over the interests of the population at large?

Whatever about an elected head of state with symbolic power, the people can at least remove, really, the hereditary monarch argument just seems like an argument from the 18th century.

I'm from the Republic of Ireland, which is culturally very similar to the UK, but wow, what a difference in perspective on this issue!

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#190

Post by nothrabannosir » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:05 AM UTC

pdx wrote: post #79

r00fus wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they see the coup as endangering the economic situation which could lead to more job-losses and the like. Let's be honest, would you support a coup in your country if that meant potentially years of unrest and economic crisis?

> would you support a coup in your country if that meant potentially years of unrest and economic crisis Of course I would. Once you have children, you have a foot in the future. You look at what your counry will be like in 30 or 40 or 50 years. You don't focus so much on short term gains, but on long term gains. If you feel that your country is heading down the wrong path, and altering that path will result in a bet…

> Once you have children, you have a foot in the future.

I appreciate the sentiment, but you risk alienating a lot of childless people with this rhetoric. I don't have children, but I like to think I care about the future of my continent, as well.