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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

arstechnica.com

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Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#251

Post by simonbarker87 »

WorldMaker wrote: post #190
simonbarker87 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Americans like to hate Nissan but outside the US the Leaf was a pretty reasonable first stab at an electric car, before Tesla and is into its second rev now. It’s by no means the best one but given they were early to the market it’s a little unfair to blame all Japanese car makers.

Carlos Ghosn is an interesting character, and maybe not the best person, but some of the things he said to Nissan's board at the time about EVs were prophetic. He did give Nissan a leg up versus other Japanese brands. It is interesting to wonder if his original plan for Nissan America might have been the best call and Americans would have a very different view of Nissan had it happened. (Nissan America makes entirely…

I wasn’t aware of the US specific aspect to Nissan, here in the UK the Qashqai flies off the production line as is pretty much single handedly keeping the North East economy alive with the Sunderland plant kicking out 500,000 cars a year

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#252

Post by simonbarker87 »

Robotbeat wrote: post #219
simonbarker87 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Americans like to hate Nissan but outside the US the Leaf was a pretty reasonable first stab at an electric car, before Tesla and is into its second rev now. It’s by no means the best one but given they were early to the market it’s a little unfair to blame all Japanese car makers.

Agreed that the Nissan Leaf was not a bad introduction to EVs. It sucks that they took so long to get to 200-250 mile EPA range, though, which really ought to be the minimum (along with 100kW DC charging) for a pure electric vehicle. But at least they were doing something.

Sadly it did take them a long time to get up to the higher ranges. I think they wanted to wait for the new rev to come out on the typical 7 year cycle and out their efforts into that model rather than extensively improve the (ugly) first version.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#253

Post by NoblePublius »

tmotwu wrote: post #68
NoblePublius wrote: post #52

This is about distribution. Toyotas are sold through dealers. Dealers make little money on selling cars and lots of money fixing them. The Prius appeals to eco concious drivers (who don’t mind that their car drives like a dishwasher) but also appeals to dealers because it needs oil changes, radiator flushed, and frequent brake changes. Full EVs require almost no maintenance so Toyota dealers lack any incentive to mar…

As someone who spends their time maintaining every aspect of my cars (oil, brakes, bearings, everything), Toyotas were by far the easiest, simplest, cheapest, most reliable and longest lasting. What a weak point to make about Tesla over Toyota.

My Model Y has 27,000 miles on it and all I’ve had to do is refill the wiper fluid. Toyotas are great cars. And you buy them from a repair shop. Think about that.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#254

Post by theluketaylor »

winternett wrote: post #117
Causality1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

3 major problems none of the EV evangelists are addressing about with EVs are 1. What happens to all the giant lithium batteries on these vehicles after they reach end of life? 2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)? 3. Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the p…

> deploy EVs too early

EVs get cleaner as the grid does, there is no need to wait. EVs are already at least on par with the cleanest ICE cars on every mix of energy generation in the US and only getting better as coal plants shut down and the grid shifts to renewable. Waiting is letting perfect be the enemy of good. No one is suggesting switching to EVs is a solution to climate change. Cleaning up the grid and electrifying everything is a solution, of which EVs are a part.

Used EV batteries command a serious premium for all sorts of re-use. Recycling of the raw materials will be economically valuable once batteries are no longer useful for even stationary grid storage

As others have pointed out, when the power is off gas pumps don't work either. If you're concerned about evac practice good charging hygiene the same way you would store potable water and food. Plug in each day and the battery will always have tons of range.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#255

Post by jeeeb »

TheParkShark wrote: post #250
KMnO4 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

48 miles is probably good enough for 95%+ of people. Also worth noting that that’s higher than any other PHEV in its class (SUV).

It may be good but no one (in America) wants 48 miles. People complain about the range on current EV’s during winter. A nice round number like 100 has a much better chance of appealing to consumers.

Right but the advantage of a PHEV is that it can switch to using its ICE. With a full tank you should have a range of 1000km+.

Theoretically (if it works well) it’s an EV for short trips combined with an ICE for longer trips in a single car. That should overcome the range and charge time objections to BEVs.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#256

Post by ashtonkem »

rantwasp wrote: post #237
ashtonkem wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s legal for them to do so, I just think they’re bad people for doing it. Attempting to slow down the de-carbonization of our transit because your company bet wrong is just evil, no way around it.

i agree with you in principle, but (there’s always a but) there are other more impactful things that can be done to cut down carbon emissions (modern cars are already stupid-efficient). Who has the mora authority to declare that Toyota should roll over and die to attain some goal that may or may not be achievable?

> Who has the mora authority to declare that Toyota should roll over and die to attain some goal that may or may not be achievable?

False dilemma. Toyota could start making EVs instead. If they decide to (stupidly) refuse to do that, then their death would be the result of their own stubbornness, not a declared death sentence from someone else.

And as far as who has the moral authority? Anyone who stands to face the harms of global warming and not profit off it.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#257

Post by cycomanic »

theluketaylor wrote: post #171
cycomanic wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually not true, you significantly underestimate the weight and space requirements of batteries necessary for long range EVs. There was just a comparison by heise.de of the Mercedes Eqa and GlA [1] and in comparison of space they write that the more EV the less space, i.e. ICE>PHEV>EV

For extreme range the extra weight starts to cost efficiency and you get diminishing returns, but I think my model 3 sr+ is close to the optimal balance. 50 kWh battery gets me 400 km range and weighs right in line with other compact and midsized sedans at 1600 kg. Charging speed is fast enough that long road trips are not a big deal. There isn't a single ICE car in the same footprint with that much storage space or…

>There isn't a single ICE car in the same footprint with that much storage space or forward visibility.

That is demonstrably false. The size of the Tesla is the about same as a Volvo V60. The V60 has >500 l of storage volume compared to the 385l of the Tesla. Similarly the Seat Octavia has also more than 500l storage volume (even in the sedan version). So yes there are plenty of ICE cars of that size which have the same storage space, in fact most ICEs of that size have more storage space.

Also the model 3 according to the ADAC [1] in the standard version has an efficiency of 19.5 kWh/100km and around 300 km range, in comparison the Hyundai Ioniq has 14.7 kWh/100km so the Tesla is not even close. The VW ID3 has 19.3 kWh/100km so very similar to the Tesla, it is quite a bit smaller and it's storage is also smaller at 315l (however much easier to get to). So it does not seem like the Model 3 is one of the most efficient.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#258

Post by cycomanic »

forz877 wrote: post #122
cycomanic wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been quite a few studies questioning the current focus on EVs with ranges of 400km and more. Largely because they are so heavy and are therefore not very energy efficient. The argument is that most peoples daily commute is less than 50km (in Europe), but they still by an overly heavy EV for the 5-10 times a year they go on longer trips. Instead a plugin hybrid could be much more efficient, because you can use…

People do not just buy cars for daily commutes, it doesn't make sense to solely design around that.

That's my point exactly, the buy the EV to be dimensioned for the occasional weekend trip, but could often be much better of with a car with EV dimensioned for the daily commute and use ICE for the couple of long trips. This would likely be more cost efficient and ecological.

Don't get me wrong I like EVs, but the current crop's design is not such a straight forward winner in terms of ecological footprint over PHEV as many EV fanboys believe.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#259

Post by mikem170 »

> Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

Am I the only one who thinks it is 100% wrong that companies can give politicians hundreds of millions of dollars?

Politicians are supposed to represent people. Real breathing people.

Sampling a handful of other countries, like Canada, Germany, Japan, etc. I found that they all pretty much banned (or drastically curtailed) donations form companies, unions, and trade associations. Most of them had some combination of publically funded campaigns and incentives and limits for personal donations. In a couple of the countries I looked at there were limits on how long campaigns lasted.

The corporate lobbying that goes on in the U.S. would be illegal in many other countries and counted against them in corruption indexes.

We need an amendment to reverse the supreme court on this. Once we get rid of corporate money from politics we might have a shot at fixing a lot of other problems.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#260

Post by theluketaylor »

stevev wrote: post #143
cycomanic wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from the fact that all car makers had drive assist systems for years and this is by no means a Tesla invention, if safety measures really are the main factor for people to choosing a car, we should be seeing Volvos almost exclusively. But your comment which asserts that only Tesla does proper drive assist says everything. Somehow Tesla managed to convince everyone that they are the only innovators and everyone…

Interesting. What other car makers has self driving capabilities, runs on ev exceeding 250 mi on range, and has cameras around the car? Last I checked Volvos doesn’t even come close.

Volvo C40 and XC40 Recharge both meet that standard. As does Polestar 2, which is a Volvo in all but name.

L2 autonomy features like Tesla's autopilot are extremely common and Tesla isn't even the best. GM's Supercruise is currently the best L2 system out there.

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