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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

arstechnica.com

81–90 of 315 posts

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#81
post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

>depending on your daily driving patterns This is the key point. Modern highly efficient turbocharged 4 cylinder ICE vehicles can be equally or more efficient than a hybrid in the right circumstances as well. But the vast majority of driving is city streets <45mph, where ICE can't even come close to BEV.

There's been quite a few studies questioning the current focus on EVs with ranges of 400km and more. Largely because they are so heavy and are therefore not very energy efficient. The argument is that most peoples daily commute is less than 50km (in Europe), but they still by an overly heavy EV for the 5-10 times a year they go on longer trips. Instead a plugin hybrid could be much more efficient, because you can use it in EV mode for your commutes, but you can still use the car for long trips, without the significant weight (and corresponding inefficiency) increases of an EV. I suspect this is very much a function of the driving pattern, and I suspect in the mid-term future this will change with more efficient battery technology.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#82

To be fair. A Chevy volt can be more environmentally friendly than a Tesla. Most people don’t drive more than 50 miles per day. Pushing for hybrids with 50-75 mile range might do more for emissions than pushing everyone to EV convert. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/are-chevy-...

[deleted]

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#83
post #78
post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

May I ask, what business does the Senate have on what car you would be buying?

The effect of carbon emissions isn't limited to only the buyers of a vehicle.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#84
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen for cars was an obvious boondoggle for a decade or more. There's making guesses and then there's ignoring obvious trends. Toyota did the latter. Edit: And to prove that I thought it was obvious a decade ago, here's my opinion from a decade ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3070004

I'm not sold that this has been established yet: technology moves in mysterious ways. For example EVs don't have an answer to long distance transportation yet (it should be trains, that are easily automated, but I'm not god emperor). You could imagine a future where greening that industry necessitates a storable, pumpable fuel and suddenly hydrogen infrastructure is a thing that personal vehicles could be built again…

EV range will continue to increase and so will charging speeds and number of stations. Cybertruck and Tesla Semi may have 600+ miles of range. Combined with faster charging, human fatigue will start to become the bigger limiting factor. Driving more than 12 hours per day is a very niche activity. Even truckers are forbidden from doing that by law.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an idea can be both good and unpopular communism is a good idea, but it's unpopular, for a reason i say. The reason for the idea of taxing externalities being unpopular isn't really proven yet - after all, it hasn't been instated, but just spoken about, and the silent majority don't have an opinion!

I should note, that I don't think massive political shifts should be tested in production. So whether communism is a good idea or not remains to be seen. We need to run a solid pilot, get the as many kinks out as possible, and then assess. Similar with taxing damages to Earth.

> So whether communism is a good idea or not remains to be seen.

You are being too charitable. There is no shortage of data on communism after the last century. The results are so unequivocally bad across the board, you have to be ignorant of history or just ignorant in general to still think it's a good idea. As soon as someone tells me communism is a good thing, I realize I'm taking to someone who is not very intelligent and look for a way out of the conversation.

Edit: You can downvote, but you can't change history. There are levels of being wrong, but thinking communism is a good idea is just an extremely wrong opinion completely contradicted by history in over 40 countries (I counted) over a period of 100 years - with not a single example in favor.

On top of that, the evils perpetuated by communist countries upon their own citizens were not surpassed by any regime of the 20th century, not even the genocidal ones like Rwanda, or Nazi Germany. And yet some clueless class of people, largely located in academic institutions still somehow thinks it's a good idea. They are not only wrong, they are so wrong as to be stupid, and while I don't condone ad-hominen attacks generally, I feel it fits accurately here.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#86
post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

>depending on your daily driving patterns This is the key point. Modern highly efficient turbocharged 4 cylinder ICE vehicles can be equally or more efficient than a hybrid in the right circumstances as well. But the vast majority of driving is city streets <45mph, where ICE can't even come close to BEV.

I feel like at least some of this depends on whether the ICE in a hybrid is coupled directly to the wheels or not. I believe in all current consumer vehicles it is, but there are other applications like hybrid trains and city buses where the engine is just running a generator at a constant RPM. Surely that kind of configuration would be the absolute best case scenario for ICE efficiency, and probably even for overall system efficiency (with battery loses accounted for) depending on the ratio of city to highway driving.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#87
post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#88
post #64

How hard is it to concentrate hydrogen down post-production to where the Mirai/another FCV could use it? I ask, because I at least understand it's possible to separate hydrogen out of water relatively easily once you've got the water. (More and more, the ocean seems like a huge resource we're not tapping: the most lithium reserves on earth, pulling carbon out of it (for sequestration), and potential hydrogen source j…

You lose efficiency when using electricity for electrolysis, compression and transportation of hydrogen. And then through the fuel cell itself which is used to charge a battery.

That entire roundabout process results in a pretty low efficiency for hydrogen. Why not skip all those steps and put the electricity right into a battery with little efficiency loss.

https://insideevs.com/news/406676/battery-electric-hydrogen-...

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#89
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope liquid democracy can someday become a thing. The fact that an idea can be both good and unpopular is -- IMO -- the linchpin of almost every other problem we face.

> an idea can be both good and unpopular communism is a good idea, but it's unpopular, for a reason i say. The reason for the idea of taxing externalities being unpopular isn't really proven yet - after all, it hasn't been instated, but just spoken about, and the silent majority don't have an opinion!

> communism is a good idea

Is that a troll? See my comment below.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#90

To be fair. A Chevy volt can be more environmentally friendly than a Tesla. Most people don’t drive more than 50 miles per day. Pushing for hybrids with 50-75 mile range might do more for emissions than pushing everyone to EV convert. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/are-chevy-...

We love our Volt, but GM has discontinued Volt production. My spouse's driving is typical around-town errands with occasional road-trip. From the most recent monthly report:

Fuel Economy: 205 mpg

Electric Consumption: 31 kW-hr/100 miles

Electric Miles: 341

Gas Miles: 81

Total Miles: 422 mi

Percentage on Electric: 81%

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