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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

arstechnica.com

241–250 of 315 posts

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#241

A new Prius is basically as expensive as a Model 3. It was great tech 10 years ago but today outside of Ubers I don't see the reason to get it as opposed to a full EV.

A new Prius MSRPs for $25k and a Model 3 MSRPs for $40k.

I don't see how you can say $25k and $40k are basically the same price.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#242

Production of batteries is the constraint ... previously, currently, and in foreseeable future ( Further, given this capacity, the numbers work out such that we are, on the macro level, DRASTICALLY more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly by putting more hybrids and Plug-in Hybrids (which have fewer batteries) on the road than we are by reserving said batteries for fewer pure EVs. 2.5 Priuses are better than…

This is true in theory, but in practice I think hybrids are the worst of both worlds. I've had two Toyota Priuses and a Honda Civic Hybrid all of which we drove to around 150,000 miles each. One of our Priuses and the Civic Hybrid needed their hybrid batteries replaced during their lifetime. Not only was this a significant cost but I've got to believe that it negates a lot of the environmental benefits of the vehicle…

I think the elephant in the room is always going to be people who can't afford new cars and have to contend with used cars. 25% of cars on the road today are at least 16 years old (1), and the trend is the average car continues to get older. A working class person might buy a car for $2000, then junk it once it has some catastrophic repair bill they can't afford, and buy another $2000 car afterwards that might be slightly newer and cheaper than the repair on the first one. What will a $2000 used EV look like? Will it have a decent range? Will it need an expensive battery replacement? Will it even be competitive with a $2000 gasoline car? These are all open questions, but I think they will have to be answered sooner than later if we are to realistically imagine a future without gas cars. It's just not going to come by everyone in America buying or leasing one new from a dealership, even with the government subsidies in place it only knocks EV prices down to brand new entry level gasoline car price, nowhere close to used car prices.

1. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/28/25percent-of-cars-in-us-are-...

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of good data. 40 counties make up around 20 independent failures out of as many attempts at implementing communism. > I seen a comment by a "intelligent dude" like you, in his intelligence he compared North and South Korea, ignored that sanctions for the North and the tons of money US dropped on south and he got the conclusion he wanted. Don't even get me started on the story of the two Koreas. Everyt…

If you can explain how comparing North and South Korea is fair I would be impressed , previous dudes seemed to have no idea about history or their mind was missing the logic skill, maybe you can do a semi decent attempt. Btw China is a big economy and many of HNers tell me that their are communists and the party dictates everything etc, so you need some other skillful argument to attribute all the good in China to US…

> previous dudes seemed to have no idea about history or their mind was missing the logic skill

I'm getting less and less sure you're qualified to judge that as we go.

> Btw China is a big economy and many of HNers tell me that their are communists and the party dictates everything etc, so you need some other skillful argument to attribute all the good in China to US and capitalism and of-course blame all the bad on communism.

They're economically very capitalist with stock markets, free enterprise, billionaires etc. Having a totalitarian government has not been all bad for them, which is not an endorsement of such a system. However, communism very clearly failed for China, and the story did not change until they abandoned it - at which point that had a success story every bit as impressive as that of South Korea.

> Also I personally believe that most of us understand by communism is not superior to the systems we see in Western Europe, my objection was to your bad argument that there are good clean data where you can extract clear conclusions.

How much more data do you need to see before you can have a clear conclusion? You've got literally 40 case studies, roughly 20 of them independent "experiments", and 100% failure rate. Seriously, it's case closed already. This is not something reasonable people can disagree on. It's the economic equivalent of trying to argue the Earth is flat.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#244

To be fair. A Chevy volt can be more environmentally friendly than a Tesla. Most people don’t drive more than 50 miles per day. Pushing for hybrids with 50-75 mile range might do more for emissions than pushing everyone to EV convert. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/are-chevy-...

Imo what would be even better for commuters and cities would be a push towards ebikes. They go 25mph, most traffic in rush hour goes 16mph so you can beat that if you can squeeze by or have a bike lane. Most have a range of like 20 miles at least, and iirc the average car commute in the U.S. is 5-7 miles one way so these vehicles can cover most commutes. Ebikes are more tolerable to biking in inclimate weather than regular bikes as well. You don't get sweaty biking in the heat, and in the rain or snow you can actually gear up without risk of sweat building and soaking up your rain or snow gear from the inside as you huff and puff on a normal bike. If enough people are inclined to ebike commute, there will be more political support for more bike lanes, even services like plows and salting of the bike lanes over the winter, or even cheap shades over the lanes to keep off rain or sun.

The big barrier of ebikes is their cost. If you want one that isn't aliexpress tier with questionable batteries that might explode, you are going to drop money that could buy you a pretty decent used honda that is way more practical, probably $1500-2000. Plus there is the issue of theft and insuring these from theft or accidents. I'm not sure if theft would be covered by renters insurance or if you'd need a separate policy, it might even depend where the bike was stolen.

If the government is willing to give new EV car buyers $7000, they should give that same stipend to ebike buyers who would be able to get any top of the line model for free with money left over with that amount of subsidy. Not only do you get most of the benefits of electric commuting like with an EV, but you don't have to deal with the congestion that a car sized vehicle like an EV carrying one person at a time brings.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#245
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the Prius prime, it gets a little over 25 mi EV-only and the only time it needs to burn gasoline is if you turn on the windshield defroster because the heat pump can only do so much I guess. But the performance feels much sportier in EV mode and it has no trouble pulling up to 80mph without any ICE

25mi EV only is like an electric scooter range.

Yes it is, very much so. You need to know your needs well to maximize your purchase, but for us it was cheaper than a Leaf to buy and it works exquisitely. I only hoped Toyota had never bet on Hydrogen for everyone, and ended up with zero-emissions in the hands of no one.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For #2, I think it might be valid for areas which experience hurricanes or other natural disasters. Though, couldn't you charge your car with a gas generator in an emergency if you really needed to?

Good point! You could carry the gas generator with you when you leave. Maybe some EVs would let you plug in while driving! You'd just have to redirect the generator exhaust out the back via some sort tail-pipe...

Yep, I'm sure you can jerry-rig something. Afterwards, when the emergency has passed and you are back to your boring life, you can then put the generator back in the garage instead of bringing it everywhere you go.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#247
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest counter argument is that it’s just cheaper to go with hydrogen. People have created this narrative where “efficiency = cost” when in reality it’s more expensive to go that far in efficiency.

In what way is hydrogen cheaper?

It's cheaper overall since you don't need to worry about a heavy battery. This is already the case for larger vehicles: https://cafcp.org/sites/default/files/07-24-2020-Foothill-ZE...

This likely to be true for more types of vehicles as hydrogen gets cheaper.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in the case of urban areas, outside of some select locations, the charging infra is just not there for BEVs. Even if there were good EV infra in urban areas, a compelling case could be made for improving and upgrading public transportation instead which is going to be more efficient than any personal vehicle - including BEVs.

A sidenote but unless public transport vehicles are electric, they won’t be better than battery electric vehicles. Typical diesel buses with typical occupancy rates have worse emissions per passenger mile then, say, a model three with a typical occupancy rate and grid emissions factor in US. BEVs are fantastic, have SOME level of infrastructure literally everywhere with electricity (you literally can charge from a 12…

Personal vehicles also have a much larger carbon footprint in general (from manufacturing, maintenance, etc) aside from just emissions during operation of the vehicle.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#249
post #238
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I agree with you. Simply taxing things with negative externalities enough to cover the true cost would simply and conclusively fix a lot of things we struggle with, faster and without relying on politicians. I think it's politically very unpopular, but the economic theory behind it is extremely sound.

If you priced everything according to the negative externalities they cause, you would have poor people unable to afford $10/gal milk and probably pay more than the dairy farmer subsidy in healthcare costs related to poor nutrition for this entire class of people. I think nuance is needed, but the danger is that this nuance is where industries see opportunities for regulatory capture. Sometimes I think the American p…

I think the problem of poor people not being able to afford adequate nutrition has to be tackled separately. You're right that there will be all kinds of unintended effects. You're also right (in my opinion) that the US political system seems incapable of solving those kinds of hard problems anyway.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#250
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric. The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.

48 miles is probably good enough for 95%+ of people. Also worth noting that that’s higher than any other PHEV in its class (SUV).

It may be good but no one (in America) wants 48 miles. People complain about the range on current EV’s during winter. A nice round number like 100 has a much better chance of appealing to consumers.
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