Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen • Hacker News Board

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#111

Post by KineticLensman » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

throw_nbvc1234 wrote: post #77

KineticLensman wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> heavily taxing carbon emissions and having the market find the best solution? Public perception may be one reason. If a carbon emissions tax directly leads to big increases in fuel costs, it can cause problems for drivers / vehicle users for whom fuel cost is a significant concern. The 2018 Gilet Jaune protests [0] in France were partly due to public dissatisfaction with fuel price rises. Regulatory instruments (su…

If societies answer to climate change is "Don't punish/impact poor people who negatively effect the environment" Then we might as well just pack our bags for Mars now. Over the next 100-200 years, every (poor) 3rd world country is going to continue to get more and more industrialized and impact the environment more and more. Maybe I'm 100% off here but i'd be surprised if we (rich countries) can lower our emissions e…

> If societies answer to climate change is "Don't punish/impact poor people who negatively effect the environment" Then we might as well just pack our bags for Mars now.

Dealing with climate change will include costs and sacrifices that affect individuals and societies. Politicians unwilling to deal with these costs, for ideological and / or electability reasons, will not in my opinion be likely to advocate for the measures necessary to address climate change.

(Also, I'm assuming that when the billionaires go to Mars they won't make the mistake that is common in Stephen Baxter's Scifi novels, where the colonisers always seem to include a subpopulation of disaffected criminals / lowlifes / etc who inevitably mutiny.)

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#112

Post by tsudounym » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #32

MelvinButtsESQ wrote: post #19

Production of batteries is the constraint ... previously, currently, and in foreseeable future ( Further, given this capacity, the numbers work out such that we are, on the macro level, DRASTICALLY more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly by putting more hybrids and Plug-in Hybrids (which have fewer batteries) on the road than we are by reserving said batteries for fewer pure EVs. 2.5 Priuses are better than…

The 2nd Gen Chevy Volt was the Model 3 we deserved, but couldn't appreciate. 40-50 miles EV range meant that most people would have an EV most of the time, and use gas only on one off trips. And while people 10 years behind on ICE advancements would immediately start yelling about dragging around a dead weight ICE all day, modern ICEs are incredibly light, efficient, and reliable in the type of application the Volt h…

The Nissan e-power series is better - the gas engine only powers the electric motor which gives you a full-EV experience when driving.

Hybrids need to start distancing themselves from the Prius and promote the insane 0-60 times that EVs are capable of now.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#113

Post by b112 » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

trixie_ wrote: post #70

WhompingWindows wrote: post #44

The Japanese car companies have done pretty poorly in the 2010's in supporting the energy transition. Toyota has been extremely slow to adapt after the Prius, which makes sense because of their ridiculously large volume of sales of basic, gas-efficient passenger vehicles. I give Toyota big props for the Prius, which was the original Green Vehicle 15-20 years ago, and still is a HUGE player in the efficiency space. II…

They've got some weird obsession with hydrogen.. even recently I've seen a lot of online advertising for their hydrogen vehicle the Mirai which is wildly impractical in the US and probably anywhere else.

It's extremely practical, they just need a refueling network.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#114

Post by JKCalhoun » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

ricw wrote: post #79

WhompingWindows wrote: post #44

The Japanese car companies have done pretty poorly in the 2010's in supporting the energy transition. Toyota has been extremely slow to adapt after the Prius, which makes sense because of their ridiculously large volume of sales of basic, gas-efficient passenger vehicles. I give Toyota big props for the Prius, which was the original Green Vehicle 15-20 years ago, and still is a HUGE player in the efficiency space. II…

Toyota in particular has been quite dirty and backwards facing. They strongly opposed the tightening of vehicle emissions standards in the USA as one of three companies (fiat-Chrysler and GM being the others). They are constantly lobbying against EV tech, whilst pushing hydrogen as a technology which is no viable alternative in the medium or near term future (this can be seen as a big oil ploy as hydrogen is and will…

Yes, I am done with Toyota as well. They can now join Volkswagen....

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#115

Post by ianai » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

trixie_ wrote: post #88

ianai wrote: post #64

How hard is it to concentrate hydrogen down post-production to where the Mirai/another FCV could use it? I ask, because I at least understand it's possible to separate hydrogen out of water relatively easily once you've got the water. (More and more, the ocean seems like a huge resource we're not tapping: the most lithium reserves on earth, pulling carbon out of it (for sequestration), and potential hydrogen source j…

You lose efficiency when using electricity for electrolysis, compression and transportation of hydrogen. And then through the fuel cell itself which is used to charge a battery. That entire roundabout process results in a pretty low efficiency for hydrogen. Why not skip all those steps and put the electricity right into a battery with little efficiency loss. https://insideevs.com/news/406676/battery-electric-hydrogen…

Your comment is OT, but here's a comment I made previously to it ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27872908 ) :

Even the term “fossil fuels” is an inappropriate framing of the chemicals involved since it restricts their use to burning. Consider the processes involved in their formations: organic material grew for eons millions of years ago. It then had to be buried in just the right conditions and later embedded into even further beneficial conditions. It took millions of years, high temperatures, and high pressures to go from plant material to these complex molecular forms. Then we dig them up or seep them out with fracking and further refine them. Then we burn them. Huge losses of energy all along the way. Using oil as fossil fuel is a huge waste of the energy it took to create those molecules.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#116

Post by anonuser123456 » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #87

bildung wrote: post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric.

The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#117

Post by winternett » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #87

bildung wrote: post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

3 major problems none of the EV evangelists are addressing about with EVs are

1. What happens to all the giant lithium batteries on these vehicles after they reach end of life?

2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)?

3. Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the power to charge these vehicles, that must be considered in terms of overall value of EVs in reducing environmental impacts of fossil fuel elimination.

We need to realize that the motivation to deploy EVs too early is driven by profit rather than by motives in environmental protection and conservation of resources, then the really productive conversations can occur.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#118

Post by persedes » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #8

ashtonkem wrote: post #4

My pet theory is that Toyota or Honda will be on life support by the end of next decade, if not dead. They both had a huge head start in batteries with their hybrids (Honda’s first hybrid was released in 1999), and they squandered it. Hopefully the Korean car companies crush them with superior products.

I've pre-ordered an Ioniq 5. Tesla has a real competitor in Hyundai. If you don't care about the "self-driving" thing, other companies are catching up fast.

I was close to getting one 2 years ago. Did the safety tests improve since then? If I recall the 2019 had issues with the roof / pillars, which were not strong enough to support the car in case you flipped it.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#119

Post by bryanlarsen » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #99

KineticLensman wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> heavily taxing carbon emissions and having the market find the best solution? Public perception may be one reason. If a carbon emissions tax directly leads to big increases in fuel costs, it can cause problems for drivers / vehicle users for whom fuel cost is a significant concern. The 2018 Gilet Jaune protests [0] in France were partly due to public dissatisfaction with fuel price rises. Regulatory instruments (su…

There's an easy solution to that though. You redistribute all the money from a carbon tax back to the people, either equally to everyone, or better, based on income. We already know that wealthy people generate the most carbon. If that activity was taxed and then the money was given to poorer people who can't afford to transition to clean energy, it would still be a net win, because it will reduce emissions while mak…

That's what they do in Canada. It's awesome but a lot of people hate it because they're being told they should by the usual suspects.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#120

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #99

KineticLensman wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> heavily taxing carbon emissions and having the market find the best solution? Public perception may be one reason. If a carbon emissions tax directly leads to big increases in fuel costs, it can cause problems for drivers / vehicle users for whom fuel cost is a significant concern. The 2018 Gilet Jaune protests [0] in France were partly due to public dissatisfaction with fuel price rises. Regulatory instruments (su…

There's an easy solution to that though. You redistribute all the money from a carbon tax back to the people, either equally to everyone, or better, based on income. We already know that wealthy people generate the most carbon. If that activity was taxed and then the money was given to poorer people who can't afford to transition to clean energy, it would still be a net win, because it will reduce emissions while mak…

[deleted]