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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#221

Post by scruple »

mschuster91 wrote: post #212
zozbot234 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AA and other twelve-steps programs are not inherently "religious-based". They only ask you to believe in some power higher than yourself that you can tap into as a source of inner sternness and restraint. You can call that a spiritual outlook if you like, but it's a very mild one and quite far from any organized or established religion. And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and st…

There have been many that linked it to being cultist (e.g. [1]). > And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long term. In any case, that is my biggest issue with AA and a lot of other "abstinence" programs (particularly those mandated by courts): they all but mandate that complete and utter sobriety is the only acceptable way instead of helping people to…

I spent decades of my life trying to pursue moderation. It doesn't work (for me). The Sinclair Method worked. I tried AA but the white knuckle approach wasn't right for me. I know people who have absolutely gotten sober using AA, others who use both, and others still who use different medications.

In my experience, moderation was the worst possible solution. It was like perpetually kicking the problem down the road to be dealt with on another day. Relapse was frequent and always right around the corner, and with relapse came shame, guilt, and other feelings of failure.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#222

Post by micromacrofoot »

atchoo wrote: post #92
hiatus wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should people quote DFW as an authority given his suicide? A very good writer who committed suicide is probably a great person from whose experience we might learn, especially since they expressed what might be their internal anguish so eloquently.

He might only teach as a counter-example. He may be advocating for highly dysfunctional irrational thinking patterns that leads to suicide. They might be convincing, seductive and dangerous and should only be responsibly presented with clear context and challenge.

this sounds like “don’t ever listen to anyone because they might be wrong”

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#223

Post by stocknoob »

martindbp wrote: post #199
cedws wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

Believe it or not, traveling and partying gets old. Most of us have an evolutionary desire to have kids. You may not, but it can take time to manifest. Look out for feelings of hollowness, boredom or depression. Parenting may be hard, but I've never felt hollow or bored or that life has no meaning.

You probably didn’t mean it this way, but that reasoning emphasizes bringing beings into this world to avoid your own bad emotions, and not so they can experience their own good ones.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#224

Post by niea_11 »

atchoo wrote: post #68
niea_11 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another relevant quote by David foster wallace : The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will e…

Should people quote DFW as an authority given his suicide? Using metaphors of physical reality for psychological states can make it falsely appear more immutable that it is. It is possible to escape the burning buildings of the mind and knowing that you have agency over your ideas can be an essential part of the reframing/rethinking/challenging that can free you from suffering. Letting people believe they are in a si…

Sorry, I never read the quote as supporting suicide as a decision. But it's possible that a person contemplating suicide might see it that way.

I always read it as being about empathy. Explaining that sometimes a person's action probably have subjectively valid reasons that we should try to understand, or at least try to accept.

I read the gp comment's quote the same way that's why I shared this one.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#225

Post by anonymouskimmer »

omginternets wrote: post #220
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for decades, and went through worse. I’ll be hanging out with a bunch, tonight. Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it. And that’s about all I’ll say on the matter.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t dismiss everybody’s opinions on the matter for lack of direct experience. You’re setting things up to avoid debate.

There's enough wiseacring as is.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#226

Post by hotpotamus »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66
vanviegen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can be cured.

Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for decades, and went through worse. I’ll be hanging out with a bunch, tonight. Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it. And that’s about all I’ll say on the matter.

I personally know people who have been dirty for decades. A friend of mine "inherited" the stewardship of one such person and he was a miserable bastard until he died of cancer and the only people who knew him regretted that it didn't progress faster. He was a drag on the few people willing to associate with him (neither his mother or daughter among them) both emotionally and financially. I myself helped clean up the disgusting mass of cigarette tar filled beer cans he left in my friend's house after he passed.

So your mileage may vary I suppose. And that's about all I'll say on the matter.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#227

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

omginternets wrote: post #220
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for decades, and went through worse. I’ll be hanging out with a bunch, tonight. Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it. And that’s about all I’ll say on the matter.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t dismiss everybody’s opinions on the matter for lack of direct experience. You’re setting things up to avoid debate.

"War talk by men who have been in a war is always interesting; whereas moon talk by a poet who has not been in the moon is likely to be dull."

- Mark Twain

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#228

Post by cppenjoyer »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #30

This is something that I have had some personal experience with. I've known quite a few suicides, and survivors of the suicides of others. Very much a "walk a mile in a man's shoes" kind of thing. Everyone has opinions on the matter, until it hits them. Then, they have personal experience (not just an opinion). It sucks. In some cases, I can see why someone would want to end it all. In others, like this one[0], I fin…

[flagged]

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#229

Post by anonymouskimmer »

petesergeant wrote: post #141
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about a chap in Holland that was a recidivist alcoholic, who took advantage of the Dutch Euthanasia laws, to end his life. There's really no way to put a positive spin on it. It sucks, no matter what opinions we hold on the matter. The laws aren't the issue. If someone really wants to end things; they will. I have seen it many times, and alternative means can be absolutely devastating to the survivors.

> who took advantage of the Dutch Euthanasia laws, to end his life ... it sucks, no matter what opinions we hold on the matter His brother disagrees with you, explicitly answering an anti-euthanasia protester with: "I am just glad my brother did not have to jump in front of a train or live a few more years in agony before dying of his abuse"

He could have ODed on opium from the dark web. He could have networked with other suicidal people to find a humane way to kill himself (or be killed).

I hate that people steelman governmental oversight and approval of suicide by strawmanning the other options.

In countries which legalize euthanasia it becomes easier to do it for more reasons.

Just keep it illegal, but don't prosecute people who try to do it. When a person reaches a point where they really want to die, they can figure out a way.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#230

Post by codr7 »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #40
goodpoint wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To kill yourself by getting skin cancer?

Honestly, I just find it hard to care about skin cancer all that much. I gotta die from something at some point, and I feel like covering my skin in nasty oils and stuff on every nice summer day is too much a price for me just to die from "not skin cancer". Because now every nice day is a little bit less nice. Ofc I'm a bit lucky because I can at least tan somewhat, so if I just taper up my sun exposure in the spring…

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